Martial Arts stuff (from different thread)

by Thaak Fri May 15, 2009 9:09 am

Thaak: Member

Post n°26

Re: Martial Arts stuff (from different thread)

by Thaak Fri May 15, 2009 9:09 am

Milarepa wrote:

Thaak wrote:
I think you are thinking too much about it to be honest.

Yeah, you told me that before. And like i replied before, maybe you're thinking too little?

As I have studied in my shamanic path, I've run into the problem of using my mind, instead of my heart, too much. In other words, I over analyze things instead of just letting them be what they are.

So I consciously made the effort to stop thinking about things that just don't matter.

And whether someone calls it Tae Kwon Do or Karate or "Worley Te" I can tell you that it doesn't matter.

Whether someone uses Chakras or the Seika Tanden in Reiki, it just doesn't matter.

They are just words. A metaphor so we can wrap our consensual reality brain around concepts we couldn't otherwise understand.

If we just exist within the moment, enjoy the moment, and move on to the next moment, then words and metaphors don't matter.

As such, I don't think too little. I still think too much to be honest. But I'm learning, and a word doesn't, for me, define something as correct or incorrect.

But to each their own. If you couldn't see yourself training at a place that advertised Karate but was based in Tae Kwon Do, then you know that, and you know enough about martial arts to not participate at that studio.

by Bruce Fri May 15, 2009 9:45 am

Bruce

Bruce: Member

Post n°27

Re: Martial Arts stuff (from different thread)

by Bruce Fri May 15, 2009 9:45 am

"Traditional Tae Kwon Do?" The traditional martial arts people I know say "traditional taekwondo" is an oxymoron.

Bruce

by Bruce Fri May 15, 2009 9:47 am

Bruce

Bruce: Member

Post n°28

Re: Martial Arts stuff (from different thread)

by Bruce Fri May 15, 2009 9:47 am

Thaak wrote:
Whether someone uses Chakras or the Seika Tanden in Reiki, it just doesn't matter.

I have to disagree with that. In the same way that I'd have to disagree if someone claiming to be a martial practitioner said that he used the chakras instead of the dan tian (tanden), but that it doesn't matter.

Bruce

by **Milarepa** Fri May 15, 2009 9:59 am

Milarepa

Milarepa: Forum Founder

Post n°29

Re: Martial Arts stuff (from different thread)

by Milarepa Fri May 15, 2009 9:59 am

Thaak wrote:Wayne, there is more than one type of Karate.

I know. I've already told you i've been involved with two different styles.

Thaak wrote:
And please don't tell me I don't know what Tae Kwon Do is. I studied traditional Tae Kwon Do for 2 years in High School. I know what its like.

Did i say that? I suggested you go speak to the WTF directly, or better still, ask the Kukkiwon. And i've also provided you with an expert opinion form a pretty high ranking TKD teacher.

If you don't take my word for it, or the article form the 4th dan i provided, or even go ask them directly, it seems whatever i say or provide will always be irrelevant.

Thaak wrote:
The style I am currently training in is not the Tae Kwon Do I studied in high school, even though the basis for the style was Jhoon Rhee Tae Kwon Do. I don't know how Jhoon Rhee Tae Kwon Do differs specifically from the I.J. Kim Tae Kwon Do I took in high school.

In 1956 Jhoon Rhee was a 3rd degree black belt, who went to USA to teach Tang Soo Do. Come, 1960, general Choi visited him, and convinced him to use the term TaeKwondo. The TaeKwondo of the 1960's (in america) was very much like Shotokan Karate. general Choi himself said Taekwondo was a mixture of Karate & Tae Kyon (Korean martial art). General Choi was eventually 'ousted' from Korea, and excluded form the predesesor of WTF.

It was decided in the 1960's by Choi & Rhee to portray it as a style of Karate. And many americans still think it's Karate that was taught. Jhoon rhee himself said it was cause they 'didn't want americans thinking it was an oriental restaruant, they'd at least heard of Karate'.

However, the WTF has changed the format of TaeKwondo since 1973, making it much less Karate like, and they'll tell you this if you ask. They stress high kicks, and have reduced the role of punches.

Unfortunately as there are two 'camps' of TKD, one has origins in Shotkan Karate, and was brought to america. The other 'camp' became the offical recoqnised TKD body in Korea, along with the Kukkiwon for grading, and they changed the format away from Karate.

You learned what has roots in Shotokan Karate. It wouldn't be accepted in the olympics though, or recoqnised in Korea.

This is about as much as i can say now really.

Thaak wrote:
Are they gipping their students because they think they are taking Karate and it really is some hybrid based on Tae Kwon Do?

I just really like being acurate in what i teach. And if i don't know what it is should be teaching, then i shouldn't be teaching, imo. It's my responsibility to find out though.

take care
Wayne

by **Milarepa** Fri May 15, 2009 10:01 am

Milarepa

Milarepa: Forum Founder

Post n°30

Re: Martial Arts stuff (from different thread)

by Milarepa Fri May 15, 2009 10:01 am

Thaak wrote:

Milarepa wrote:

Thaak wrote:
I think you are thinking too much about it to be honest.

Yeah, you told me that before. And like i replied before, maybe you're thinking too little?

As I have studied in my shamanic path, I've run into the problem of using my mind, instead of my heart, too much. In other words, I over analyze things instead of just letting them be what they are.

what you expereince when you think too much, and what i might expereince are two different things, Smile

.

Thaak wrote:[
If we just exist within the moment, enjoy the moment, and move on to the next moment, then words and metaphors don't matter.

On a forum Andy, it's about all there is, and is what can start personal growth. And at the end of the day bro, you're the one who re-created this kinda topic from another.

take care
Wayne

by Thaak Fri May 15, 2009 10:35 am

Thaak

Thaak: Member

Post n°31

Re: Martial Arts stuff (from different thread)

by Thaak Fri May 15, 2009 10:35 am

Milarepa wrote:

On a forum Andy, it's about all there is, and is what can start personal growth. And at the end of the day bro, you're the one who re-created this kinda topic from another.

take care
Wayne

True enough. Although even on a message board, words don't necessarily need specificity to be valid.

I moved this "off-topic" stuff onto this thread because I wanted to discuss Martial Arts but didn't feel it fit in with the "How long did it take you to get 3rd level Reiki" topic.

Chuckle...

by Thaak Fri May 15, 2009 10:38 am

Thaak

Thaak: Member

Post n°32

Re: Martial Arts stuff (from different thread)

by Thaak Fri May 15, 2009 10:38 am

Milarepa wrote:
In 1956 Jhoon Rhee was a 3rd degree black belt, who went to USA to teach Tang Soo Do. Come, 1960, general Choi visited him, and convinced him to use the term TaeKwondo. The TaeKwondo of the 1960's (in america) was very much like Shotokan Karate. general Choi himself said Taekwondo was a mixture of Karate & Tae Kyon (Korean martial art). General Choi was eventually 'ousted' from Korea, and excluded form the predesesor of WTF.

It was decided in the 1960's by Choi & Rhee to portray it as a style of Karate. And many americans still think it's Karate that was taught. Jhoon rhee himself said it was cause they 'didn't want americans thinking it was an oriental restaruant, they'd at least heard of Karate'.

However, the WTF has changed the format of TaeKwondo since 1973, making it much less Karate like, and they'll tell you this if you ask. They stress high kicks, and have reduced the role of punches.

Unfortunately as there are two 'camps' of TKD, one has origins in Shotkan Karate, and was brought to america. The other 'camp' became the offical recoqnised TKD body in Korea, along with the Kukkiwon for grading, and they changed the format away from Karate.

You learned what has roots in Shotokan Karate. It wouldn't be accepted in the olympics though, or recoqnised in Korea.

This is about as much as i can say now really.

Interesting. I did briefly go over to the Jhoon Rhee Institute website while I was at work, but couldn't spend a ton of time on it. I did not know this evolution of this style of martial arts.

I guess this specifically answers why my school uses the term Karate though.

I do find it interesting that Jhoon Rhee currently uses the term Tae Kwon Do.

by **Milarepa** Fri May 15, 2009 10:38 am

Milarepa

Milarepa: Forum Founder

Post n°33

Re: Martial Arts stuff (from different thread)

by Milarepa Fri May 15, 2009 10:38 am

Thaak wrote:

I moved this "off-topic" stuff onto this thread because I wanted to discuss Martial Arts but didn't feel it fit in with the "How long did it take you to get 3rd level Reiki" topic.

Chuckle...

So how's the discussions on martial arts going? We've been debating for hours now, hehe. It's all good anyhow.

Take care
Wayne

by Thaak Fri May 15, 2009 10:44 am

Thaak

Thaak: Member

Post n°34

Re: Martial Arts stuff (from different thread)

by Thaak Fri May 15, 2009 10:44 am

Milarepa wrote:

Thaak wrote:

I moved this "off-topic" stuff onto this thread because I wanted to discuss Martial Arts but didn't feel it fit in with the "How long did it take you to get 3rd level Reiki" topic.

Chuckle...

So how's the discussions on martial arts going? We've been debating for hours now, hehe. It's all good anyhow.

Take care
Wayne

All-in-all pretty well I think. I actually learned something about the history of the style I am a black belt in, that I did not know. I guess I always felt odd asking John Worley why he calls it Karate when its based in Jhoon Rhee Tae Kwon Do. Then I enjoyed myself so much with it, it just ceased to matter.

But I find it incredibly interesting that the basis of this version is sourced from Shotokan Karate (which is why when I'm at a tournament our forms(katas) look significantly different from the Kenpo people who show up, and is significantly different from the Tae Kwon Do kata I did in high school and from 2001-2002.)

For what its worth, when I was in college (1994 through 1996) I took a quarter (2.5 to 3 months) of Tae Kwon Do, Judo, Tai Chi, and Aikido. I really enjoyed the Aikido and Tai Chi.

One of these days, when I'm done paying off the 8 years of Karate I signed up for, I'd like to get involved with Tai Chi or some form of Kung Fu. More for a spiritual reason than for sport. The type of Karate I take is hard to treat it for spiritual means because none of the instructors are that spiritually in touch with the art.

by Thaak Fri May 15, 2009 10:56 am

Thaak

Thaak: Member

Post n°35

Re: Martial Arts stuff (from different thread)

by Thaak Fri May 15, 2009 10:56 am

Found this interesting bit from the Jhoon Rhee Institute website.

Philosophy

What is Tae Kwon Do? I defined the Jhoon Rhee Tae Kwon Do System through the "Lead By Example Action Philosophy" A picture is worth 1,000 words; an action is worth 1000 pictures. After 5,000 years of written human history, our Founding Fathers made a huge difference during the past 200 years by giving the world their own action philosophy.
Our Founding Fathers not only talked about the freedom system but they actually realized it. Today we enjoy the fruits of their efforts. Let us not forget the value of their wisdom and courage.

"Liberty is the gift of God not the government, and the purpose of government is to protect that liberty not to destroy it." By George Mason

Are drinking and smoking good for children? Everyone will say no. The next question is: Are they good for parents and teachers? The answers I heard from all children is NO. Why then, do some adults smoke or drink? I believe this is the very reason why our children develop negative habits.

Let us teach our children not by words as alone but through our actions. My nickname is being changed from "Nobody Bothers Me" to the "Push-up Man" since 1998, when I performed 100 push-ups in 60 seconds in a TV show titled, "THE MASTERS", produced bt Wesley Snipes. Three basic human qualities we emphasize to our students is Knowledge in the mind, Honesty in the heart, and Strength in the body. I have been encouraging everyone to set a life goal, "100 years of wisdom in a body of 21-year-old."

Why Did I Study Tae Kwon Do? Before I answer this question, I would like to ask everyone, Why Do We Live?
The universal purpose of life is HAPPINESS. When I am truthful, my heart becomes beautiful; when my heart becomes beautiful, people love me; when people love me; I am Happy. Therefore, when one is truthful, being beautiful and being loved is automatic. Therefore, universal human values are Truth, Beauty, and Love.

I started studying my Tae Kwon Do at age 13, behind my father's back. Tae Kwon Do had a very low social image in Korea in the 1940's and 1950's. I could not understand that, because I recognized the value of it so clearly. I set my goal to introduce Tae Kwon Do in America, because I fell in love with American blonde movie stars. I made my commitment to enhance the public image of Tae Kwon Do in America, because anything that happens in America, good or bad, influences the world. My goal was realized. It went beyond my greatest expectation to witness Tae Kwon Do medallists in the Olympic Games in Sydney, Australia.
- Grandmaster Jhoon Rhee

by Thaak Fri May 15, 2009 11:07 am

Thaak

Thaak: Member

Post n°36

Re: Martial Arts stuff (from different thread)

by Thaak Fri May 15, 2009 11:07 am

Additionally:

The following link discusses why what a student of Jhoon Rhee, named Allen Steen, called the martial art style, American Karate or American Tae Kwon Do, because he took items from other styles and combined them with the style Jhoon Rhee taught to create his own style.

So actually, the style I have become a black belt in, is essentially American Karate.

You'll note that John Worley was noted as one of the prestigious students in the lineage of Allen Steen and Pat Burleson.

http://www.abbahouston.com/texaskarate.html

by **Milarepa** Fri May 15, 2009 11:33 am

Milarepa

Milarepa: Forum Founder

Post n°37

Re: Martial Arts stuff (from different thread)

by Milarepa Fri May 15, 2009 11:33 am

Thaak wrote:
I do find it interesting that Jhoon Rhee currently uses the term Tae Kwon Do.

Yeah. In 1956 Jhoon Rhee went to Texas to train with the USAf, and was probably the first person to teach an american class. Jhoon Rhee was teaching Tang so do, which was regarded as Korean Karate.

This came about because Tang soo do is one of 9 kwan's (schools). The Koreans wanted to unify the schools under one art, and they came up with the term Tae Kwon do. Hence Gen. Choi asking Jhoon Rhee to use the term Tae Kwon do. So really, although what Jhenn Rhee taught (post Choi visit) was Taekwondo, it was still Tang soo do ultimately, which, was reagarded as Korean Karate. This was what initially USA became familiar with. This was back in the 60's.

Like i said already, General Choi asked him to use the name of TaeKwondo. Gen. Choi was nidan in Shotokan Karate (apparently), and only honourary 4th dan of Chung do kwan (this was allegedly cancelled as Choi lied about his dan grades). Gen. Choi was the person who had the idea of the term TaeKwondo. He was more involved politically, in marketing it. It's worth noting, Gen. Choi's nidan rank has never been verified by the JKA.

the attempts at unification stalled, and the nine schools continued to teach theri diferent styles. This was until 1972. then the National Technique Center (Kukkiwon) was created.

Take care
Wayne

by Thaak Fri May 15, 2009 11:38 am

Thaak

Thaak: Member

Post n°38

Re: Martial Arts stuff (from different thread)

by Thaak Fri May 15, 2009 11:38 am

Just read a bunch of interesting information on Shotokan Karate as well. Shoto (Pine Wave) was the calligraphy nick name of the founder of this style of Karate, and his students started calling the style he taught Shotokan or "house of Shoto."

It also appears that back in the 20's through present day, many of the masters of their respective styles went and trained with other masters and became junior instructors in those styles as well.

So there was so much trading and teaching amongst the masters during that time, and guys who would create their own styles based on a conglomeration of various styles... interesting stuff!

by **Milarepa** Fri May 15, 2009 11:39 am

Milarepa

Milarepa: Forum Founder

Post n°39

Re: Martial Arts stuff (from different thread)

by Milarepa Fri May 15, 2009 11:39 am

Thaak wrote:
One of these days, when I'm done paying off the 8 years of Karate I signed up for, I'd like to get involved with Tai Chi or some form of Kung Fu. More for a spiritual reason than for sport. The type of Karate I take is hard to treat it for spiritual means because none of the instructors are that spiritually in touch with the art.

I've not had any exposure to it, but a few Krav Maga students said that they'd got some 'dissillusioned' JKD students come over. AS JKD was too spiritual.

I'm gonna have a go at Genbukan Ninpo very, very, soon. I'm really looking forward to it actually. 3 styles in it are to do with spiritual stuff, that's what makes it more encompassing than Ninjitsu. I'm very fortunate, two of the approx. dozen recoqnised teachers wordlwide, teach within 30 miles of me. Which is really cool!

BTw, before i go to sleep, just wanted to say that what i wrote about what you learnt not being able to do in olympics might be wrong. There's conflciting information, and i'm too tired to seek to verify it with WTF, but i don't want to mis-inform in any way, Smile

.

Just re-checked, anyone in the ITF, Jhoon rhee/Choi, woudl need to be a part of the WTf, and certified by the Kukkiwon before they can qualify.

Take care
Wayne

by **chi_solas** Fri May 15, 2009 1:04 pm

chi_solas

chi_solas: Admin/Forum Promoter

Post n°40

Re: Martial Arts stuff (from different thread)

by chi_solas Fri May 15, 2009 1:04 pm

I've been to the dojo many times to watch my grandchildren perform.
or receive their belts. I know they have certain codes to honor.
Now I will have to ask more questions from them after trying to
make sense of the many posting here.

I remember when my brother was a teenager he practiced Jujitsu

I got introduced to martial arts a few years ago through Dahn Yoga
some folks were not impressed with their style. I didn't have any
thing to measure their program with.

There is a Tae Kwon Do.studio in our town center over a chinese
restaurant. I never paid much attention to it being anything other
than chinese Karate. What I'm reading here is that Tae Kwon Do is
Korean

sunny

by Bruce Fri May 15, 2009 1:37 pm

Bruce

Bruce: Member

Post n°41

Re: Martial Arts stuff (from different thread)

by Bruce Fri May 15, 2009 1:37 pm

Milarepa wrote:

Thaak wrote:
One of these days, when I'm done paying off the 8 years of Karate I signed up for, I'd like to get involved with Tai Chi or some form of Kung Fu. More for a spiritual reason than for sport. The type of Karate I take is hard to treat it for spiritual means because none of the instructors are that spiritually in touch with the art.

If you go into taijiquan (t'ai chi ch'uan), it would be good to check and be sure that it's in a traditional lineage, with martial content still being taught. There are way too many taijiquan schools that are just teaching students to wave their arms around.

I've not had any exposure to it, but a few Krav Maga students said that they'd got some 'dissillusioned' JKD students come over. AS JKD was too spiritual.

What? JKD was too spiritual??? That's the first time I've ever seen that allegation.

Maybe next we'll be hearing about "traditional krav maga."

Bruce

by Thaak Fri May 15, 2009 2:39 pm

Thaak

Thaak: Member

Post n°42

Re: Martial Arts stuff (from different thread)

by Thaak Fri May 15, 2009 2:39 pm

Bruce wrote:

Milarepa wrote:

Thaak wrote:
One of these days, when I'm done paying off the 8 years of Karate I signed up for, I'd like to get involved with Tai Chi or some form of Kung Fu. More for a spiritual reason than for sport. The type of Karate I take is hard to treat it for spiritual means because none of the instructors are that spiritually in touch with the art.

If you go into taijiquan (t'ai chi ch'uan), it would be good to check and be sure that it's in a traditional lineage, with martial content still being taught. There are way too many taijiquan schools that are just teaching students to wave their arms around.

I've not had any exposure to it, but a few Krav Maga students said that they'd got some 'dissillusioned' JKD students come over. AS JKD was too spiritual.

What? JKD was too spiritual??? That's the first time I've ever seen that allegation.

Maybe next we'll be hearing about "traditional krav maga."

Bruce

I'm not sure what JKD is.

by thehungrycaterpillar Fri May 15, 2009 5:42 pm

thehungrycaterpillar

thehungrycaterpillar: Member

Post n°43

Re: Martial Arts stuff (from different thread)

by thehungrycaterpillar Fri May 15, 2009 5:42 pm

My nope was bout breakin a brick on my head! Ouch!

fine, maybe not the head, aren't the side of your hands supposed to be 'hardened' from practice?? Very Happy

I'll spar anyone, any day of the week. I am pretty good by the way (consistently won under belt competitions.)

well, congrads! Very Happy

got any home videos you want to show us?

Yes, but not usually involving something that would intentionally cause myself pain.

yes?
name it?

Funny thing about that, is my current style doesn't do any board breaking at all. But I was doing spin hook kick and jumping back-leg round house breaks in High School at blue belt.

sounds cool...
you guys don't break anything?? tongue

My kids took TKD for a while, used to enjoy watching the practice, sparring etc...

when I see a big debarked stick laying on the ground.

Oh yeah, That's what I am talking about!! Very Happy

My friends (or when I have a significant other) don't usually like partaking in that play though.

I think it can be a lot of fun....can come in handy at check out counters and ticket booths!
Cool

by **Milarepa** Fri May 15, 2009 10:18 pm

Milarepa

Milarepa: Forum Founder

Post n°44

Re: Martial Arts stuff (from different thread)

by Milarepa Fri May 15, 2009 10:18 pm

Bruce wrote:

What? JKD was too spiritual??? That's the first time I've ever seen that allegation.

The Taky Kimura version is what's taught here. I'm not sure how the three (?) version differ. With the Kimura one, Bruce Lee's phiolosophy is also taught, which includes mental, social & spiritual knwoledge that was taught by Bruce Lee. Just of th etop if my head, that things about being like water, i think it might be from Chan Buddhism?

I'm not sure how much the Kimura version go into his spirituality, but if the students in question like Krav Maga better, i guess it inidcates they just wanna learn how to fight, nothing else.

Bruce wrote:
Maybe next we'll be hearing about "traditional krav maga."

Hehe, you had to say it! slightly tongue in cheek here, hehe, when i was learning Krav Maga, it was CKM, Commando Krav Maga, created by Moni Azik. In CKM circles, what the IKMF teach (as created by Imi Lichtenfeld) was viewed as more 'traditional', if i can even allude to it that way.

I know what you meant by your above quote, as Krav Maga truely draws from many different martial arts.

Take care
Wayne

by Bruce Fri May 15, 2009 11:25 pm

Bruce

Bruce: Member

Post n°45

Re: Martial Arts stuff (from different thread)

by Bruce Fri May 15, 2009 11:25 pm

Thaak wrote:I'm not sure what JKD is.

JKD = Jeet Kun Do, Bruce Lee's eclectic system. The name of the system means "the way of the intercepting fist." (In Mandarin, that would be Jie Quan Dao.) The JKD guys I've met are concerned about developing attributes such as speed, and techniques such as "trapping," rather than spirituality. Though I haven't seen Taky Kimura's version, to which Wayne refers.

Bruce

by Bruce Fri May 15, 2009 11:29 pm

Bruce

Bruce: Member

Post n°46

Re: Martial Arts stuff (from different thread)

by Bruce Fri May 15, 2009 11:29 pm

Milarepa wrote:

Bruce wrote:
Maybe next we'll be hearing about "traditional krav maga."

Hehe, you had to say it!

Sometimes I just can't stop myself from doing it. But hey, I managed to stay out of this thread for awhile; heh, heh.

Bruce

by **Rlei_ki** Fri May 15, 2009 11:54 pm

Rlei_ki

Rlei_ki: Senior member/Forum Promoter

Post n°47

Re: Martial Arts stuff (from different thread)

by Rlei_ki Fri May 15, 2009 11:54 pm

Bruce wrote:...In the same way that I'd have to disagree if someone claiming to be a martial practitioner said that he used the chakras instead of the dan tian (tanden), but that it doesn't matter.

Unless perhaps, he was a student of Kalari payat, or some other Indian art...

.
.
.

by **Milarepa** Sat May 16, 2009 12:12 am

Milarepa

Milarepa: Forum Founder

Post n°48

Re: Martial Arts stuff (from different thread)

by Milarepa Sat May 16, 2009 12:12 am

Rlei_ki wrote:

Bruce wrote:...In the same way that I'd have to disagree if someone claiming to be a martial practitioner said that he used the chakras instead of the dan tian (tanden), but that it doesn't matter.

Unless perhaps, he was a student of Kalari payat, or some other Indian art...

.
.
.

Kind of like an Indian version of Kung fu? Looks like Kung Fu a bit (and aspects of capoeria), they use animals as basis of art also. It's said Kalari payat is one of the oldest arts. I wonder, would there have been any link between Kalari & Kung fu, via those that travelled East?

take care
Wayne

by **Rlei_ki** Sat May 16, 2009 12:43 am

Rlei_ki

Rlei_ki: Senior member/Forum Promoter

Post n°49

Re: Martial Arts stuff (from different thread)

by Rlei_ki Sat May 16, 2009 12:43 am

Milarepa wrote:.. I wonder, would there have been any link between Kalari & Kung fu, via those that travelled East? ...

Why is it, d'you think, folks usually think of the East, when the martial arts are mentioned?

What about the Western arts?

For example, the UK's home-grown art of E-T:
"The Ancient Lancastrian Art of Self-defence"

Instructional Video 1

Instructional Video 1

Instructional Video 1

.
.
.

by **Milarepa** Sat May 16, 2009 12:46 am

Milarepa

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Post n°50

Re: Martial Arts stuff (from different thread)

by Milarepa Sat May 16, 2009 12:46 am

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