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Milarepa
15 posters

    If the symbols are for intent & focus...

    Lambs-Wool
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    If the symbols are for intent & focus... - Page 3 Empty Re: If the symbols are for intent & focus...

    Post by Lambs-Wool Sun Sep 12, 2010 6:16 pm

    Milarepa wrote:
    Lambs-Wool wrote:

    DKM and HSZSN may be a little more than 'collection of words' study they are 'phrases' independent of the words composing the collection. for exmaple, chokurei is a phrase independent of the cho-ku-rei individually in the same way reiki is different from te individual meanings of rei-ki...

    not sure what you mean here buddy? I know they're more than a collection of words (didn't a certain someone get intiated by another using them!), however, i thought my analogy was self evident...

    point now taken Wayne Smile !

    Milarepa wrote:
    Lambs-Wool wrote:
    i have in mind that kotodoma are syllables of sound, and when they are mixed their combined effect produces something like a raga, a jumon! a jumon is a phrase, while kotodama are invidiual sounds...

    individual sounds yes. but the use in Reiki, these individual sounds are broght together. per my examples of DKm & HSZSN.

    DKM = ai ku yo

    HSZSN = ho a ze ho ne

    we can see that there's a collection of vocal sounds for each symbol. this is wrongly called kotodama. It's the spiritual effect from using the above, that would be kotodama. i'd already pointed this out earlier, im pm also, Smile.

    tbh Wayne, i couldn't pick up on what you said in pm buddy. so i thought we wd continue on this here in the thread. you've said :

    we can see that there's a collection of vocal sounds for each symbol. this is wrongly called kotodama. It's the spiritual effect from using the above, that would be kotodama.
    i m certainly not knwoledgeable about this stuff (as you already know it Smile )
    the vocal sound itself would not be called kotodama unless it is uttered by somebody who 'knows' what he is uttering... but i see that you view kotodama is the 'effect' of uttering the sounds in a specific way, and you dont' see the sounds themselves as kotodama...

    if the spiritual effect (or alternatively saying, the net effect of a 'package' of selected sound syllables) is called kotodama, then i m again confused that what else a jumon is Smile please help this confusion buddy.

    you also said :

    individual sounds yes. but the use in Reiki, these individual sounds are broght together. per my examples of DKm & HSZSN.

    DKM = ai ku yo

    HSZSN = ho a ze ho ne

    now, as you taught me, when we talk about symbols, it is not the individual kanji meanings of constituent parts of symbols that would bring about the results... for example 'dai' is just a word, 'ko' is another, and 'myo, yet another... even if they are spoken as daikomyo, they don't bring any results unless there is an 'initiation' to them.

    using this rule, i have to ask that whether uttering 'ai ku yo' will bring about results for somebody who has not been initiated to DKM ?

    in shinto and aikido, do somebody needs to be some sort of 'initiated' to a sound, before that he can obtain results from chanting kotodama syllables. now that might be a classified info, and as i have observed from responses of Colin in this thread, and of James in PM some two three months back, everything cannot be relayed publicly when we talk about kotodama and jumon... since i m not a privy of such oaths, i m discussing all things at length... i dont' know where i m breaking the 'rules' affraid Smile

    i find an incoming interesting chat session with you on specifically that subject very soon as you get your full working internet Smile i m just counting! cheers



    11. Many Reiki practitioners incorrectly use the term 'kotodama' to indicate either the jumon (mantras) associated with the Reiki Symbols, or alternatively, to indicate certain simplified forms of these jumon. However, the term 'kotodama' does not refer to specific words or vocalised sounds, but rather, to the 'spiritual effect' resulting from particular application of words - in both their verbalised and written forms.

    source: http://www.aetw.org/reiki_gokai_original.html

    this illustrates your point as well as confuses me again (re : difference from jumon) Smile

    Milarepa wrote:
    Colin wrote:
    but a jumon is only said a very few times

    not entierely in my experience. it can depend on the way it's being taught. I've been learning Kuji-in a couple of years now, and we recite the 9 sacred kuji-in, Rin-Pyo-To-Sha-Kai-Jin-Retsu-Zai-Zen, many times individually, and also collectively, particularly at the start of our training.

    as far as jumon is considered as a spell/mantra, we find that a mantra needs to be offered 'precisely' as instructed in a counted number of times. this is often the case. some mantras can be uttered in countless number of times without fear of losing the desired result, but for others, we must be very certain that we utter a mantra for the 101st time, when it was intended for 100 times only, we fail to get any results at all...

    so in a way, both you and Colin are correct in respect of specific items you've spoken about... mantras/spell cannot be generalized as about their structure and chanting sequence....

    take care

    salman
    Lambs-Wool
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    If the symbols are for intent & focus... - Page 3 Empty Re: If the symbols are for intent & focus...

    Post by Lambs-Wool Sun Sep 12, 2010 6:42 pm

    Colin wrote:

    From my point of view, the difference between kotodama and jumon is that, as you said, kotodama are primal sounds, meaningless in themselves but when strung together by a master (or knowledgable practitioner) they can achieve certain effects in the practitioner and their environment. Jumon are set phrases (sometimes obscure and unintelligible) that are uttered with intent to achieve a specific outcome - like a magic spell (which is really what jumon means).


    hi Colin Smile thanks for the the nourishing info (as always been its you Smile )

    you have that kotodoma is menaingless itself unless certain such sounds are 'joined' by a knowledgeable practitioner... after such knowledgeable joining, the product is something we would call jumon on some other occasion, isn't ? (the same confusion i asked from Wayne in previous post)

    i can guess that a single sound (which we are referring as kotodama syllable) can bring about certain results which certainly would be different from the joining of such sounds. whats your take on the effect-producing capability of a kotodama syllable ? yes, or no ?

    Colin wrote:
    Both kotodama and jumon have been used for centuries in Japan and are obviously not specific to Reiki.
    .......................
    .......................
    .....However, if what we hear from these "sources" who like to stay out of the limelight, is true then Usui seems to have adapted the traditional kotodama practice to fit with what he was teaching.

    he adapted HSZSN and DKM too from Japanese usage, but we also know that he 'spiritually programmed' such phrases to do something specific in reiki... applying this on what you above said, did he simply 'adapted' or 'adapted and reprogrammed' kotodama within reiki scratch ?

    Colin wrote:
    Kotodama practice as such (i.e. chanting kotodama sounds) does not appear to have been passed on to later students such as Hayashi Sensei, although an awareness of the power and value of kotodama (and jumon) certainly was (e.g. in the Gokai).

    as Resko very aptly pointed out in reply to you, that what could have been the plausible reasons of not introducing kotodama to Hayashi Sensei... any possiblity that kotodama were first 'add-on' introduced through contemporary practitoners of Hayashi (within or outside Gakkai) who had have worked sufficiently with kotodama earlier, and would have thought to 'increase' reiki potential by blending their experience into what they carried from Usui ?

    Colin wrote:
    Another of the differences between kotodama practice and jumon is that kotodama are usually chanted over and over (like a mantra) but a jumon is only said a very few times (and I can't be any more specific than that Suspect )
    Smile

    both yes and no Smile depending upon the particular case.. (for example : within treatmetns we are advised to draw CKR once, but within initiations, we are instructed to silently chant CKR thrice or to put CKR on palms of student thrice or to tap on hands thrice... )


    Smile

    take care

    salman
    Colin
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    If the symbols are for intent & focus... - Page 3 Empty Re: If the symbols are for intent & focus...

    Post by Colin Sun Sep 12, 2010 7:33 pm

    Frank wrote:So, would you say that within Usui Reiki Ryōhō there are kotodama and no jumon?

    No, that is not what I am saying Smile

    There are both kotodama and jumon within Usui Reiki Ryoho (and Usui Shiki Ryoho) even though they may not always be mentioned as such but it appears that the chanting of kotodama was not passed on to Hayashi Smile
    Colin
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    Post by Colin Sun Sep 12, 2010 7:44 pm

    Milarepa wrote:

    Colin wrote:
    but a jumon is only said a very few times

    not entierely in my experience. it can depend on the way it's being taught. I've been learning Kuji-in a couple of years now, and we recite the 9 sacred kuji-in, Rin-Pyo-To-Sha-Kai-Jin-Retsu-Zai-Zen, many times individually, and also collectively, particularly at the start of our training.

    warmest wishes
    Wayne





    Yes, that is true - perhaps I should really have said "but a jumon is usually only said a specific number of times" Smile

    However, as you you, there are very few, if any things which are totally consistent in spiritual practices (and in Japan, in particular!)
    Smile
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    If the symbols are for intent & focus... - Page 3 Empty Re: If the symbols are for intent & focus...

    Post by Frank Sun Sep 12, 2010 11:04 pm

    Perhaps it is a good idea for a moderator or administrator to split the posts on kotodama (kotodama and jumon confusion) off from this topic, as it is a very interesting topic in itself ?

    *Gasshō*
    Frank
    chi_solas
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    If the symbols are for intent & focus... - Page 3 Empty Re: If the symbols are for intent & focus...

    Post by chi_solas Mon Sep 13, 2010 1:07 am

    Frank wrote:Perhaps it is a good idea for a moderator or administrator to split the posts on kotodama (kotodama and jumon confusion) off from this topic, as it is a very interesting topic in itself ?

    *Gasshō*
    Frank

    Frank what's wrong with discussing both
    in the same thread. Its helps folks like
    myself who are not into the depths of Reiki
    history understand that they are both
    concepts of the Sacred Power of speech If the symbols are for intent & focus... - Page 3 850837

    It's my understanding that Kotodama is a
    Japanese belief that mystical powers dwell
    in words and names. And Jumon is a magic
    spell. study

    chi_solas
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    Post by chi_solas Mon Sep 13, 2010 1:54 am

    Frank wrote:
    chi_solas wrote:Frank what's wrong with discussing both in the same thread.

    Of course there is noting -wrong- with two topics in one. I never said it was.
    I did say that it might be a better idea to split the kotodama-confusion off from this topic, because it is a very interesting topic in itself. That way both topics ("If symbols are for intent/focus" and "what is the difference between kotodama and jumon") can get full attention.. the attention they deserve, because both subjects are very interesting.

    *Gasshō*
    Frank

    Clearing up confusion is part of
    the learning process If the symbols are for intent & focus... - Page 3 850837

    I have to leave the forum right now
    but will check out the split later.
    study
    Lambs-Wool
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    If the symbols are for intent & focus... - Page 3 Empty Re: If the symbols are for intent & focus...

    Post by Lambs-Wool Mon Sep 13, 2010 7:14 am

    hey Bridget Smile sometimes retaining a confusion is a better impetus for further learning If the symbols are for intent & focus... - Page 3 850837

    Smile

    Salman
    chi_solas
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    If the symbols are for intent & focus... - Page 3 Empty Re: If the symbols are for intent & focus...

    Post by chi_solas Wed Sep 15, 2010 4:17 am

    Lambs-Wool wrote:hey Bridget Smile sometimes retaining a confusion is a better impetus for further learning If the symbols are for intent & focus... - Page 3 850837

    Smile

    Salman
    I'm still trying to understand
    the connection of the symbols
    to kotodama and jumon.

    As I read a lot of jarjon
    around japaneses culture and
    words it seems certain words
    call on a spirt to make things
    happen. So if I focus on a
    certain Reiki symbol say one
    that invokes emotions/addictions
    I chant the word harmony when in
    the presence of the person needing
    to be healed, then the spirit of
    harmony will bestow harmony to
    that person. sunny



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