Milarepa wrote:Lambs-Wool wrote:
DKM and HSZSN may be a little more than 'collection of words' they are 'phrases' independent of the words composing the collection. for exmaple, chokurei is a phrase independent of the cho-ku-rei individually in the same way reiki is different from te individual meanings of rei-ki...
not sure what you mean here buddy? I know they're more than a collection of words (didn't a certain someone get intiated by another using them!), however, i thought my analogy was self evident...
point now taken Wayne !
Milarepa wrote:Lambs-Wool wrote:
i have in mind that kotodoma are syllables of sound, and when they are mixed their combined effect produces something like a raga, a jumon! a jumon is a phrase, while kotodama are invidiual sounds...
individual sounds yes. but the use in Reiki, these individual sounds are broght together. per my examples of DKm & HSZSN.
DKM = ai ku yo
HSZSN = ho a ze ho ne
we can see that there's a collection of vocal sounds for each symbol. this is wrongly called kotodama. It's the spiritual effect from using the above, that would be kotodama. i'd already pointed this out earlier, im pm also, .
tbh Wayne, i couldn't pick up on what you said in pm buddy. so i thought we wd continue on this here in the thread. you've said :
i m certainly not knwoledgeable about this stuff (as you already know it )
we can see that there's a collection of vocal sounds for each symbol. this is wrongly called kotodama. It's the spiritual effect from using the above, that would be kotodama.
the vocal sound itself would not be called kotodama unless it is uttered by somebody who 'knows' what he is uttering... but i see that you view kotodama is the 'effect' of uttering the sounds in a specific way, and you dont' see the sounds themselves as kotodama...
if the spiritual effect (or alternatively saying, the net effect of a 'package' of selected sound syllables) is called kotodama, then i m again confused that what else a jumon is please help this confusion buddy.
you also said :
individual sounds yes. but the use in Reiki, these individual sounds are broght together. per my examples of DKm & HSZSN.
DKM = ai ku yo
HSZSN = ho a ze ho ne
now, as you taught me, when we talk about symbols, it is not the individual kanji meanings of constituent parts of symbols that would bring about the results... for example 'dai' is just a word, 'ko' is another, and 'myo, yet another... even if they are spoken as daikomyo, they don't bring any results unless there is an 'initiation' to them.
using this rule, i have to ask that whether uttering 'ai ku yo' will bring about results for somebody who has not been initiated to DKM ?
in shinto and aikido, do somebody needs to be some sort of 'initiated' to a sound, before that he can obtain results from chanting kotodama syllables. now that might be a classified info, and as i have observed from responses of Colin in this thread, and of James in PM some two three months back, everything cannot be relayed publicly when we talk about kotodama and jumon... since i m not a privy of such oaths, i m discussing all things at length... i dont' know where i m breaking the 'rules'
i find an incoming interesting chat session with you on specifically that subject very soon as you get your full working internet i m just counting!
this illustrates your point as well as confuses me again (re : difference from jumon)
11. Many Reiki practitioners incorrectly use the term 'kotodama' to indicate either the jumon (mantras) associated with the Reiki Symbols, or alternatively, to indicate certain simplified forms of these jumon. However, the term 'kotodama' does not refer to specific words or vocalised sounds, but rather, to the 'spiritual effect' resulting from particular application of words - in both their verbalised and written forms.
source: http://www.aetw.org/reiki_gokai_original.html
Milarepa wrote:Colin wrote:
but a jumon is only said a very few times
not entierely in my experience. it can depend on the way it's being taught. I've been learning Kuji-in a couple of years now, and we recite the 9 sacred kuji-in, Rin-Pyo-To-Sha-Kai-Jin-Retsu-Zai-Zen, many times individually, and also collectively, particularly at the start of our training.
as far as jumon is considered as a spell/mantra, we find that a mantra needs to be offered 'precisely' as instructed in a counted number of times. this is often the case. some mantras can be uttered in countless number of times without fear of losing the desired result, but for others, we must be very certain that we utter a mantra for the 101st time, when it was intended for 100 times only, we fail to get any results at all...
so in a way, both you and Colin are correct in respect of specific items you've spoken about... mantras/spell cannot be generalized as about their structure and chanting sequence....
take care
salman