Traditional reiki vs. western reiki..which do you prefer?

So, just trying to deepen my understanding..I understand western reiki is based on takata and some hayashi, while traditional is more pure usui..anyone have an opinion on which is more effective and why? or is it that both are equally effective depending on the situation?
/discuss

wildcarde wrote:So, just trying to deepen my understanding..I understand western reiki is based on takata and some hayashi, while traditional is more pure usui..anyone have an opinion on which is more effective and why? or is it that both are equally effective depending on the situation?
/discuss

This is a great question I'm interested
in what others have experienced.

wildcarde wrote:So, just trying to deepen my understanding..I understand western reiki is based on takata and some hayashi, while traditional is more pure usui..anyone have an opinion on which is more effective and why? or is it that both are equally effective depending on the situation?
/discuss

Personally, I think it is difficult to split Reiki into Western and Traditional because each of these titles cover so many different styles and mixes of Traditional and added-in teachings!

As to which is more effective, I would say that if one is practicing Reiki then one has the potential to be as effective as anyone else practising Reiki whatever style they are practicing. By practicing Reiki, I mean the practitioner should have received an initiation (attunement/Reiju/empowerment) from a Reiki Teacher(Master), have been taught the Gokai (Five Reiki Principles) and practice daily recitation of these and regular self-treatment. That is all you really need!

The symbols can help extend what you can achieve (from a treatment and self-development point of view) but even without using them great results can be obtained.

As long as the foundation teachings are there I think it is really a matter of personal preference as to whether you want to go the "traditional Japanese, simple, uncluttered" route or "incorporate as many extra techniques as you can because they all add to your toolbox" route - or somewhere inbetween.

The phenomenon of Reiki is greater than any individual style!

wildcarde wrote:So, just trying to deepen my understanding..I understand western reiki is based on takata and some hayashi,...

yeah some folks do say that. usually they're into the japanese styles though, .

Reiki as taught by Takata sensei was Japanese Reiki. She taught as Hayashi sensei in turn taught her. THe changes were made from her students down. Though some stayed true to her teachings.

wildcarde wrote:
while traditional is more pure usui..anyone have an opinion on which is more effective and why? or is it that both are equally effective depending on the situation?
/discuss

whoever says there style is pure, to me means the opposite. If it was the pure way, they certainly wouldn't tell folks outwardly. I'm saying this cause even the lineages who stay true to Takata sensei's teachings now, don't let anyone in. they're very choosy, i assume to ensure they have the right kind of students, who won't mess about with the teachings.

imo, there's not one style more effective than another. different styles can focus on different things. for example, Jikiden focusses on others, and from what i hear they excel at that.

the depth of Reiki experience mostly depends on the current perception of the individual, imo. .

warmest wishes
wayne

Hi Folks,


Colin and Wayne have shared opinions that I agree with.

Colin wrote:

As to which is more effective, I would say that if one is practicing Reiki then one has the potential to be as effective as anyone else practising Reiki whatever style they are practicing. By practicing Reiki, I mean the practitioner should have received an initiation (attunement/Reiju/empowerment) from a Reiki Teacher(Master), have been taught the Gokai (Five Reiki Principles) and practice daily recitation of these and regular self-treatment. That is all you really need!

Once attuned, the practitioner`s devotion to certain practices would seem to have great effect on their abilities. This seems to be true most of the time. I would tell any student to do their personal work, and not get caught up in which style is better. A..."better style" to me at least, translates into..."the flavor of the week Reiki".

Milarepa wrote:

whoever says there style is pure, to me means the opposite. If it was the pure way, they certainly wouldn't tell folks outwardly. I'm saying this cause even the lineages who stay true to Takata sensei's teachings now, don't let anyone in. they're very choosy, i assume to ensure they have the right kind of students, who won't mess about with the teachings.


warmest wishes
wayne

If someone on this planet is actually practicing Reiki as Usui did, I do believe that we would never find out about it. And really, it will be a more positive conversation if I don`t go into the details as to why i agree with Wayne in this.
I think I saw something at James`s site stating that he was aware of approximately 200 styles of Reiki and counting...I think it would take along time and a lot of attunements to find the "BEST REIKI" in that sea of styles. Wow...200 styles...600 attunements...might be interesting, but I think I`ll pass.

4 symbols, 3 attunements, precepts daily, meditation daily, self treatment daily...a heart and mind filled with compassion....this is the best system I know of...call it what ever you want...


RJ

Reiki as taught by Takata sensei was Japanese Reiki. She taught as Hayashi sensei in turn taught her. THe changes were made from her students down. Though some stayed true to her teachings.

If Takata taught Japanese Reiki and
you say her students made the changes.
That seems to, maybe come from her style
of teaching. I understand she did not have
scripted classes. She taught Reiki in a way
that would be accepted in the US during a
war time period when Japan was not considered
friendly towards the US.

chi_solas wrote:

Reiki as taught by Takata sensei was Japanese Reiki. She taught as Hayashi sensei in turn taught her. THe changes were made from her students down. Though some stayed true to her teachings.

If Takata taught Japanese Reiki and
you say her students made the changes.
That seems to, maybe come from her style
of teaching. I understand she did not have
scripted classes.

it was oral, . She taught as she was herself taught. though she did give out the Hayashi Ryoho Shishin to some. Manuals are a newish kinda thing, and i'm near sure some of the Japanese styles didn't have manuals some years ago. but now do.

The differences that Takata sensei's master students encountered, where little ones really. At least, i've been told this by someone who would know, .

chi_solas wrote:
She taught Reiki in a way
that would be accepted in the US during a
war time period when Japan was not considered
friendly towards the US.

i know everyone says that, . i'm no authority, and can definitely make mistakes as much, if not more so than any other person, but my own research has shown absolutely nothing to support the claim others make. i'm as convinced as i can be, atm, that whoever started this rumour either just assumed, and was probably non-us, or else deliberatley wanted to make folks think there's issues with Takata sensei's veracity. Here's the topic bout it:

http://www.reikilearninglounge.com/spiritual-historical-research-f12/did-hawayo-takata-feel-the-need-to-lie-about-reiki-history-t806.htm

warmest wishes
Wayne

Very interesting..It seems that one is not "better" than the other, then, it may not be able to be even thought about in those terms..would you say, then, that it's the practitioner's commitment to daily reiki practice, which includes self-treatment, the precepts, etc, that determines how effective a practitioner one is? NOT the bat, but the batter, if I can use a baseball analogy?

wildcarde wrote:Very interesting..It seems that one is not "better" than the other, then, it may not be able to be even thought about in those terms..would you say, then, that it's the practitioner's commitment to daily reiki practice, which includes self-treatment, the precepts, etc, that determines how effective a practitioner one is? NOT the bat, but the batter, if I can use a baseball analogy?

That's an interesting analogy.

the batter, and the way they percieve they're striking the ball, makes all the difference, imo.

Milarepa wrote:the batter, and the way they percieve they're striking the ball, makes all the difference, imo.

Or, indeed the way the batter perceives the ball, realising that there is no batter and there is no ball, all is One!

Interesting topic!

If you want to compare "Takata-Reiki" (or Reiki Alliance-Reiki) and Usui-sensei's teachings.. one should start with the main goal of what is taught.

Takata-Reiki/Reiki Alliance: using energy for giving treatments to yourself and others.

Usui-sensei's teachings: happiness, balance, spiritual growth with it's ultimate aim: spiritual enlightenment.

Totally different.
Incomparable, if you ask me. Nothing wrong with it though.

The question in this thread is what way is more effective.
Well, effective concerning what?

I quess you mean treatment.. healing.. hands-on healing..

Usui-sensei's teachings weren't focussed on giving treatments.
The ability to transmit energy through your hands, eyes, breath and such, was just a side effect of your own spiritual growth.
You would carry out meditations and you would use the Gokai (using them as a mantra and by integrating its meaning into your life) all quite intensively. Every once in a while you would sit with your teacher.. practising.. meditating.. sharing your experiences.. receiving Reiju.
And everything your teacher would hand to you, would be solely to support you on your path towards happiness, balance, spiritual enlightenment.

A very special and personal path. It could take months before a Shōden student was ready to able to enter Okuden Zenki training. Some people never got beyond Shōden.
And there is of course nothing wrong with that either.

What we see with 'Western' Reiki is that it is (nowadays) mainly a system in which the student learns to use energy for treatment purposes.
Hayashi taught what he had learned from Usui-sensei. However, he did not teach everything.
Takata taught what she had learned from Hayashi. Again, she appeared to have not taught everything Hayashi taught her, or at least.. not to all of her students. (Is that a correct sentence?)
After her death the Reiki Alliance was formed and Takata's teachings were standardized. Meditations and techniques people nowadays generally call "Japanese techniques/meditations" weren't taught at this point.

There are no fixed meditations within 'Western' Reiki. There is no great focus on purifying your thoughts, your actions, your energy. Generally everyone can become a 'master' within a year (or one and a half at the most) and you don't have to demonstrate a particular progress or skill in order to move on to the next level.
The system mainly teaches how to treat yourself and others. Even the symbols are used for treatment (Usui would not do this, as I understand it from one of Chris Marsh' students).

One of the great things that I have learned (and which is, as I understand it, taught in the more original styles of Usui-sensei's teachings) is that the quality and quantity of your energy depends on your own spiritual development (attitude to life, to yourself and others, your thoughts, emotions and actions, the level of your insight and so on).
So the quality and quantity of the energy you can transmit in a treatment is also determined by your level of spiritual development.

So, indeed.. ultimately it is the batter and not the bat.

Usui-sensei's teachings were very much focussed on developing and purifying yourself, your energy.. and therefore the quality and quantity of the energy you're able to transmit. The common 'Western' styles of 'Reiki' are not.

I don't say that either one is more effective when it comes to giving treatments (because indeed, it is 'the batter' and not 'the bat'). However, I do say that the 'more original approach' offers a lot more to improve your energy.

*Gasshō*
Frank

Hi Frank,

Frank wrote:
Takata-Reiki/Reiki Alliance: using energy for giving treatments to yourself and others.

Usui-sensei's teachings: happiness, balance, spiritual growth with it's ultimate aim: spiritual enlightenment.

Totally different.
Incomparable, if you ask me. Nothing wrong with it though.

where have you been able to get Usui sensei's 'teachings' from Frank? I know loads claim to have these, well, they'd need to in order to have a purpose for their system to exist.

The above comparisons are one in the same, at least as far as Usui Shiki Ryoho goes. Or, should go, anyhow, . Self-treatment, as in experience this spiritual act of Reiki for ourselves, is an immensely spiritual experience, highlighted by it's core use within Usui Shiki Ryoho.

The principles were first told to the western world via Takata sensei, and she lived every single part of her entire day according to the 'spiritual medicine of many illnesses'.

If these two things aren't enough spirituality, then maybe folks just want to clutter things more with other things, .

Frank wrote:
Usui-sensei's teachings weren't focussed on giving treatments.

They weren't? Who says this, and why?

Frank wrote:
The ability to transmit energy through your hands, eyes, breath and such, was just a side effect of your own spiritual growth.

easily remedied if a person shifts focus. For example, i very rarely use Reiki to heal myself. Havn't really done in years. Reiki is experienced for the spiritual experience with me. Cause it is a spiritual experience.

Frank wrote:
What we see with 'Western' Reiki is that it is (nowadays) mainly a system in which the student learns to use energy for treatment purposes.

Not just in 'Western' Reiki. A very well known 'Eastern' style focuses on treatment of others (not the self) also.

Frank wrote:
Takata taught what she had learned from Hayashi. Again, she appeared to have not taught everything Hayashi taught her, or at least.. not to all of her students. (Is that a correct sentence?)

A lot of what Takata sensei taught, she used her own westernised terms. So when the Japanese terms came along, folks thought she never taught those things. SHe taught many of the so called new 'original' techniques.

Frank wrote:
There are no fixed meditations within 'Western' Reiki.

Reiki isn't a meditative path, in the sense you're suggesting. It's an active experiental path, in which we experience a dynamic phenomenon. Both within us, and around us. For sure, there has to be some form of medtiation, since mediation is only focusing on one thing, but it's almost akin to semantics.

Frank wrote:
There is no great focus on purifying your thoughts, your actions, your energy.

There's a much deeper well. In Usui Shiki Ryoho, there's people who regard every act within the style as a spiritual experience, above everything else. The example that Takata sensei left with applying the principles is one that many in Usui Shiki Ryoho aspire to. How could these things do anythin but what your quote is saying.

Frank wrote:
Generally everyone can become a 'master' within a year (or one and a half at the most) and you don't have to demonstrate a particular progress or skill in order to move on to the next level.

In Usui Shiki Ryoho, there's folks who stay true to Takata sensei in lineage. These folks teach exactly as she did, and won't take anyone on as a student. Money wouldn't get you a place with these people, irresepctive of how much you offered. And if you mangaged to get accepted as a level 1 student, or even a level 2 student, the chances of you getting accepted as a leel 3 student, are much, much slimmer. There's more standards than first appears, .

Frank wrote:
The system mainly teaches how to treat yourself and others. Even the symbols are used for treatment (Usui would not do this, as I understand it from one of Chris Marsh' students).

Nice guy as Chris is, a lot of folks now prefer not to keep all their eggs in one basket, .

Frank wrote:
Usui-sensei's teachings were very much focussed on developing and purifying yourself, your energy.. and therefore the quality and quantity of the energy you're able to transmit. The common 'Western' styles of 'Reiki' are not.

Like the analogies floating about this topic, your perception of Usui Shiki Ryoho, is dictating anything you'd get from the style. I've also been, somewhat painfully, down the original, all things Japanese now must be only truth route. And i'm back to Usui Shiki Ryoho, and staying here for ever. Cause It is Japanese original Reiki. How could it not be? It was taught by a Japanese woman, exactly as a student of Usui sensei taught her. It's got everything you've said in your post about other styles, it's just so simple, and in plain sight, it's easy to miss, .

warmest wishes
Wayne

Frank wrote:Interesting topic!

If you want to compare "Takata-Reiki" (or Reiki Alliance-Reiki) and Usui-sensei's teachings.. one should start with the main goal of what is taught.

Takata-Reiki/Reiki Alliance: using energy for giving treatments to yourself and others.

Usui-sensei's teachings: happiness, balance, spiritual growth with it's ultimate aim: spiritual enlightenment.

Totally different.
Incomparable, if you ask me. Nothing wrong with it though.

All due respect, this sounds a bit elitist to me.

Frank wrote:
The question in this thread is what way is more effective.
Well, effective concerning what?

I quess you mean treatment.. healing.. hands-on healing..

Usui-sensei's teachings weren't focussed on giving treatments.

how do you know that?

Frank wrote:
The ability to transmit energy through your hands, eyes, breath and such, was just a side effect of your own spiritual growth.
You would carry out meditations and you would use the Gokai (using them as a mantra and by integrating its meaning into your life) all quite intensively. Every once in a while you would sit with your teacher.. practising.. meditating.. sharing your experiences.. receiving Reiju.
And everything your teacher would hand to you, would be solely to support you on your path towards happiness, balance, spiritual enlightenment.

A very special and personal path. It could take months before a Shōden student was ready to able to enter Okuden Zenki training. Some people never got beyond Shōden.
And there is of course nothing wrong with that either.

Again, you're making a lot of assertions, with no evidence to back it up. Where are you getting this info?

Frank wrote:
What we see with 'Western' Reiki is that it is (nowadays) mainly a system in which the student learns to use energy for treatment purposes.
Hayashi taught what he had learned from Usui-sensei. However, he did not teach everything.


Takata taught what she had learned from Hayashi. Again, she appeared to have not taught everything Hayashi taught her, or at least.. not to all of her students. (Is that a correct sentence?)
After her death the Reiki Alliance was formed and Takata's teachings were standardized. Meditations and techniques people nowadays generally call "Japanese techniques/meditations" weren't taught at this point.

There are no fixed meditations within 'Western' Reiki. There is no great focus on purifying your thoughts, your actions, your energy. Generally everyone can become a 'master' within a year (or one and a half at the most) and you don't have to demonstrate a particular progress or skill in order to move on to the next level.
The system mainly teaches how to treat yourself and others. Even the symbols are used for treatment (Usui would not do this, as I understand it from one of Chris Marsh' students).

One of Chris marsh's STUDENTS? did this student study with usui somehow?

Frank wrote:
One of the great things that I have learned (and which is, as I understand it, taught in the more original styles of Usui-sensei's teachings) is that the quality and quantity of your energy depends on your own spiritual development (attitude to life, to yourself and others, your thoughts, emotions and actions, the level of your insight and so on).
So the quality and quantity of the energy you can transmit in a treatment is also determined by your level of spiritual development.

So, indeed.. ultimately it is the batter and not the bat.

Hello Frank

You speak of one of Chris Marshs students. So do you study with someone who practices the Usui Teate style Mr Marsh used to teach? I know there has been some controversy about the information on Dr Usui provided by Mr Marsh. I do not wish to get into a discussion about its validity or whatever, but I would like to comment on something you said

Frank wrote:
Usui-sensei's teachings weren't focussed on giving treatments.

About seven years ago I was in touch with Andrew Bowling for a while. You might know that Andrew was the person who helped promote Mr Marsh and the Usui Teate teachings on line. Andrew worked closely with Mr Marsh, they ran the Usui Teate workshops together. I have their handout from the workshop, it has the subtitle 'The Spiritual Practice and Teachings of Mikao Usui'. On page six they write: "Usui was a healer and eventually, after some years of working with his art, opened a healing center of learning, through this center he gave healing and training to many people." also on page six: "As people came to him for healing Usui would also teach them to treat themselves using his own healing methods. This would include practicing and living to the Affirmations and some Meditation/Spiritual techniques. As they progressed with his teaching he would give them many Reiju to aid/open the energy flow. The person would then go home and practice what we still today call self-healing." On page seven: "Okuden included working with different levels of energy for both healing oneself and others." On page eleven there are instructions for the "Hand Positions for Usui Healing Method" Page thirteen gives "Hand positions for healing at a distance and self-healing." in other places in the handout Andrew and Mr Marsh write: "He did not only practice and teach his Spiritual Teachings in his school but also gave healing." "The Usui (Usui Teate) system included teaching people how to heal themselves. Healing would be given to them, then they were taught how to heal themselves." "His School was formed not just for the spiritual teachings but also for people to obtain the healing."
So according to Andrew and Mr Marsh, healing (treatments) does seem to have been a big part of what you call Usui-sensei's teachings.

EZRI

Dear All,

It was at no point my intention to sound or act elitist.
My apologies if I did.

My experiences with the 'more original' stuff is so overwhelming and deep that at times I get too enthusiastic when trying to talk about it. Al lot of it can't even be put into words (or cannot be shared, traditionally), so I sometimes get too enthusiastic or passionate about the things I -can- put into words (or the things that I can share).
So, please forgive me for doing that.

I'll not quote a lot from all your responses, because that would be too much. I will try to answer or clarify all points/questions raised, though.

I do not claim to know Usui-sensei's original teachings.
(And looking at Reiki-history it would be hard to determine what -exactly- would be -original-, since Usui himself seems to have made adjustments to what he taught and we are told by Suzuki-san that there was no fixed point at which Usui began teaching.)

Why have I said what I said and where did the information come from?
That seems to be the main question, so I'll answer that first.

The things I say come through various channels.

The most important factor is my own experience with (what many people call) 'Western' style and 'Japanese' style, the energy itself, the meditations..

Other things are books and manuals (e.g. from Doi, Petter, Yamaguchi, Dave King, Taggart King, a Gakkai Shihan, Frans & Bronwen Stiene), conversations with someone who knows Chris Marsh in person (and is pretty far within those teachings), someone who studied with Hyakuten Inamoto and Hiroshi Doi in Japan. Also, my own teacher is a great source of inspiration and information (out of respect for him and his teachings I won't go into that).
Furthermore, there is my own correspondence with F.A. Petter, Frans Stiene, Rick Rivard.

However, I feel the meditations and teachings from all these sources provide the most important lessons.
All sources I mentioned are merely significant in academic discussions. The meditations, techniques, Gokai, Reiju.... are very strong indications of what the purpose of the spiritual teachings was (..is).. where the path would lead to.

What Takata taught was wonderful. There is no doubt about that. And I have the utmost respect for what she did.
However, the content of what she taught seems to be not completely the same as what Hayashi taught her (you can find information on this in "The Reiki Scourcebook"). I of course agree on the fact that she knew about many (as some would call them) 'original' techniques.
But, did Hawayo Takata teach Hatsurei Hō (for example)? Did she teach to use the Gokai as a mantra and pronounce them only in Japanese? I am not aware of any source claiming she did..

(These are sincere questions, because I'm always open to good discussions about Reiki history and I would like to learn.)

The same with Hayashi. I have the utmost respect for what he did / what he taught.
He taught what he had learned from Usui. Of course that is true. However, I feel it is also true that he did not teach everything he had learned, for he seems to have focussed more on treatments (in the system he taught) and he made some changes over the years. (We can clearly see this by comparing what his students learned and taught and the way they were taught by Hayashi.)

Why do I say that Usui-sensei's teachings were not focussed on hands-on healing and why do I regard his teachings primarily as a spiritual path that requires a lot of meditation?

This is information I got from one of Chris Marsh's students. Besides that, Dave King also states: "Usui developed a meditative, spiritual system. Its purpose is to maintain unity of the self (body, mind and spirit) through harmony and balance."
Doing the meditations myself convince me of the truth of these words (and those of the student of Chris Marsh I mentioned).

However! That Usui-sensei's teachings didn't focus on hands-on healing and that it was not its ultimate goal, does not mean that hands-on healing was not a part of "the path". It was not the focus of the teachings, but that doesn't mean it wasn't practised.

EzriReiki wrote:You speak of one of Chris Marshs students. So do you study with someone who practices the Usui Teate style Mr Marsh used to teach?

Not what Marsh -used- to teach. This student I am talking about practices what Chris teaches now. (Chris used to be taught by someone called Mariko Suzuki (Suzuki-san), but he has also various other contacts. It's not up to me to talk about that though.)

The quotes you give from the handout are not familiar to me. It does not fully correspond with the things I learned from one of Chris Marsh's students, so I think I will check on that.

Milarepa wrote:
In Usui Shiki Ryoho, there's folks who stay true to Takata sensei in lineage. These folks teach exactly as she did, and won't take anyone on as a student. Money wouldn't get you a place with these people, irresepctive of how much you offered. And if you mangaged to get accepted as a level 1 student, or even a level 2 student, the chances of you getting accepted as a leel 3 student, are much, much slimmer. There's more standards than first appears,

Very interesting!


I hope I clarified my words sufficiently and I hope you will understand why I say certain things.

*Gasshō*
Frank

Hi Frank

Frank wrote:....Why do I say that Usui-sensei's teachings were not focussed on hands-on healing and why do I regard his teachings primarily as a spiritual path that requires a lot of meditation?

This is information I got from one of Chris Marsh's students.

EzriReiki wrote:You speak of one of Chris Marshs students. So do you study with someone who practices the Usui Teate style Mr Marsh used to teach?

Not what Marsh -used- to teach. This student I am talking about practices what Chris teaches now. (Chris used to be taught by someone called Mariko Suzuki (Suzuki-san), but he has also various other contacts. It's not up to me to talk about that though.)

The quotes you give from the handout are not familiar to me. It does not fully correspond with the things I learned from one of Chris Marsh's students, so I think I will check on that.

Well the quotes certainly equate with much of what Chris and Andy were teaching as "Usui Teate" in the very early days.

Though Chris has “revised” the Original Usui Teate teachings a fair bit over time.

Even though the “Teate” part of the name refers specifically to treatment practices involving the direct-contact application of the hands (- whether as manipulative therapy or as 'energetic' laying-on-of-hands type intervention )– for the purpose of treating physical injury, trauma, ailment, sickness and disease, the system Chris and Andy presented rapidly became less and less about healing and became more and more a “Method to achieve Personal Perfection"

As early as 2003 Usui Teate was being promoted as an almost purely spiritual practice – and we were told it did not actually equate with what we generally understand by the term 'Reiki'....

Then about 5(?) years or so ago, Chris seems to have stopped teaching the “Suzuki material” (as he called it) altogether.

More recently, some of Chris's former students were apparently a little disconcerted to discover that Chris no longer considers the Suzuki-san lineage to be a “true” lineage.

Currently, I believe, Chris is teaching his personal understanding of a form of shamanic/folk-style Shinto-Buddhist discipline?

well, I can see I asked a very debate-able question Eventually, I will learn both styles, and, naturally, I'll probably take from both and have a style all my own; Since I've already started down the western path, I'll see that all the way through first. I can see just that alone could be a lifetime of study. Please continue the discussion, I'm learning a lot from it.