Significance of X-MAS

Hi Shakti,

Man I just love the way you say things sometimes...

Shakti ~ Rising wrote:

I think there is a certain type of detached spirituality in christianity( and many religions).....they see god as being an external force completely seperate from themselves and they see themslevs as having been saved.... from what exactly??...then there is the whole sin thing, then there is the whole hell thing, then there is the whole guilt thing,
then there is the whole only christians have the monoply on god thing and then there is the whole god is a male thing....does that mean he has a willy?.....

No doubt it`s detached,considering that you can`t reach God unless you do so in a way that honors the belief system of the church you belong to, and the middleman who runs it...
One thing is for sure, some of what is taught should be changed so that it applies to a slightly more aware, better educated audience. Authority does not have as much influence as it once had, so we will question some things, instead of being blind followers controlled by fear of what the church could do to us as individuals socially.

Actually...I think alot of things have been twisted, for example, the "saved" thing...More or less, I see this as a way of protecting the church from it`s own demise as much as anything. Fear again...used to control us as a race...in that...only the church can save you from "eternal damnntion"...Well if we do not adopt and practice what the church offers, then the church ceases to exist based on the fact that it really has nothing to offer other than salvation. God forbid, if we look for salvation through our own eyes and a direct connection to our divine nature...that leaves the church out of the picture.
Sin,hell and guilt...lovely...just makes ya wanna kneel down and have one continuous shower that lasts about 10 years just to scrub the dirt off of our impure nature...
It would seem to me that religion has become more a tool of control than a vehicle of enlightenment. I guess the powers that be , have little confidence in our ability to evolve, so they have decided to do "whats best for us"...

The "Gods a man" thing...well that`s out dated. Yet really it`s just a feeble attempt from mankind to define something that our little minds struggle with. Male, female, yeah what ever. Funny thing is i still see new age people assigning genders to different energies, and tying the energy to a god or goddess for that matter...My Komyo teacher, bless her heart, mentioned more than once that we were working with Kannon, this being a feminine energy....yeah ok. If that`s what you need to connect go for it....divine energy has no gender in my world, just different effects and flavors. With that said, i have this attraction to Amida butsu a male deity that`s an important part of Pure Land sect Buddhism...The gender tag matters little to me, what matters is what this deity represents. I hope it`s that way for most and that gender is just a form of familiarity we need.

As far as God having a willy....I`m not sure, but if he does, i bet it`s really big!

Shakti ~ Rising wrote:
and I disagree with what you said wayne...if all religious festivals ceased there would be no goodwill at those times...I think true spirituality would take its rightful place at those sacred times..... get rid of the man made religion and inate spirituality will take its rightful place.....

but as you mentioned in an earlier post so many people rely on religion..they use it as a crutch because they have been conditioned to become spiritual cripples without it....

i think I`m gonna agree with Wayne. I`m presently in a blue collar town which exists through the oil industry....this place is full of the hardest people i have ever met in all my years on this planet...The Christmas season did soften these folks a bit. They forgot the pressures and bad environments that they work in and actually did seem to share goodwill towards other men instead of the "I got mine,too bad for you" mentality that this town usually runs on.
So...My take after 47 years of trying to learn about people and society in general...In my opinion, for what it`s worth...There are many people who will never experience any sort of spiritual connection that will be realized on a personal level. Alot of the masses have been programmed to work hard, programmed to sacrifice themselves, their happiness and the happiness of their families in pursuit of material security. The identity I see here in the west is,,,I am the car that I drive, the jewelry that i wear, the neighborhood I live in. It` ironic in that there are alot of people here in the west that have the resources to buy the time needed to pursue self growth and enlightenment. Instead they pursue Hummers, ridiculously big homes and see everyone as the competition instead of their brothers and sisters trying to survive in harmony...
So really until a few generations of people are born and raised to see the world and it`s people as one connected unit, dependent on each other, we have little hope...of changing the planet and it`s religions into something new...Individual people can be brilliant, enlightened, compassionate and caring. The masses are blind, fear based reactionary and dangerous to themselves and the planet.

Look at what we do environmentally...any doubt?

We have wealth beyond belief...yet we make not much more than gestures to help those who struggle.

It`s funny in that some organized religions teach some very special ideas that do help us evolve and live in peace. But at the same time, some of these systems have been twisted, mostly for political reasons to maintain power, and at times, to be used as an excuse to take wealth from other countries, countries of course, who worship other Gods. I remember George Bush using the "God" word alot when he was rallying the people of the United States, and the world for that matter, to send their children to the middle east to fight Terrorism. It just so happens that there is alot of oil in that part of the world as well. Killing people in the name of God again...there`s the twist.

If I could say one thing about Christianity...

Read and interpret Christianity as an individual...do not ask the church or any of it`s leaders for direction...See how you interpret the messages contained on your own...Do not be in a hurry for the answers, life will show you the answers to your questions...in time. Develope a personal relationship with God and do not let anyone else define this relationship...I did this myself about 20 years ago. i found many great teachings in the christian religion, and i also found some crap probably included through some political intervention designed to maintain the stability for the powers of that time...

As we all know...a spiritual journey tends to be a thing one walks alone...It`s mostly not a group sport, that is, if one is looking for a truly profound and understood connection with the divine entities of this Universe.

Religion, to me is okay in itself...It`s the leadership positions, more than the individuals who occupy those positions,that have become corrupt through political and social pressure, and thousands of years of such influence. There are many great things in most generally accepted religions, it comes down to what one chooses to take from the experience...


RJ

RJ's that's a lot of great thinking
and lots of thought to the root of what
some folks refer to as evil politics and
religions role in how they might direct
their flock.

Peace & Goowill To All

chi_solas wrote: RJ's that's a lot of great thinking
and lots of thought to the root of what
some folks refer to as evil politics and
religions role in how they might direct
their flock.

Peace & Goowill To All

Hi Bridget,

Who knows...? I could be way off base. Just the thoughts I had in the moment...Regardless, thanks for the compliment Bridget.

RJ

This is all good stuff, . What we're maybe not realising (just going by all our comments) is that our own experiences & understandings of religion, is only valid for us.

There's no proper, right or ultimate way to experience God. Just like there's no proper, right or ultimate way to prepare a potato. What forms our opinions is the media machine to a large extent, and this revels in bringing the bad details from around the world. Before long, we become brainwashed & conditioned, that it's in fact these structured religious paths that are doing these things. There's much hope, love & support religions bring. I'll give an example, well a few...

According to Islam, as well as helping others, it's a muslims duty to help another muslim in need. When i was a practicing muslim i was so thankful for that. I got stranded in england, and muslims helped bring me back to Ireland. They gave me two houses to for myself to live in. Also, down in dublin, i was sad one time and took an overdose. Two muslim doctors went to the cashpoint and got me loads of cash, to get home on christmas eve. The Salvation Army have also helped me lots of times before, with food when i was starving, as well as preists & convents. There's much love, assitance, cameraderie & freindship in religions. If God isn't a sign of that, i don't know what is. Then when we look to Reiki forums, were alrgely folks are on independant spiritual paths. There's very, very few will help another person, when we look at the sunday Reiki shares, of requests for healing, and i include myself in that of course. Makes a person think...

There is, without a doubt, countless folks whom have an intensely divine experience through religion. There's no heirarchy in spiritual paths, and no difference between a christian or a 'spiritual person'. If both are true to what they wish, both are spiritual people. And both are also free, experiencing God, in a way that suits them, cause they choose to expereince it that way.

Not following a religion, and sticking to personal spirituality doesn't make one anymore evolved than a buddhist or Muslim. It's the thought, word & deed that counts, not the platform used to develop it, .

Point for you Jim, very good post, and you're pushed for time also, so it's more valuable!

Take care
Wayne

firstly let me say excellent post Jim!....particularly the willy comment!! ahahaha

secondly I like to say to Bridget millions of people don't choose their religion, a particular religion can be enforced upon them before they are even old enough to say poopoo.... then all the fundamentalist views of the parents are enforced upon the child being raised....and so a very unhealthy cycle continues.....

thirdly...wayne, you said there is no right proper or ultimate way to experience god..... you and I and most rational thinking people would agree with that, but many religions and people who subscribe to those religions would disagree with that.......as they have become brainwashed and conditioned to believe that only their religion is the 'true path to god'. now I'm not suggesting all religous folk feel this way but I would suggest most do......

going now, being human is on....love it!!

Shakti ~ Rising wrote:
secondly I like to say to Bridget millions of people don't choose their religion, a particular religion can be enforced upon them before they are even old enough to say poopoo.... then all the fundamentalist views of the parents are enforced upon the child being raised....and so a very unhealthy cycle continues.....

Is it being 'forced upon' them though, in general? Or is it more parents trying to pass on that which they feel is in the paramount interests of the child? Unless we came from an abusive family, we largely do willingly pass on things to our kids we also expereinced. It could be something as obvious as religion, or it could be many things more subtle.

If folks do this with religion, there's no reason why they wouldn't do it with any other sociological model, such as politics. Should we do away with Labour, cause a family has been brought up labour (political party) for generations. Course not. Is it labours fault, course not.

Shakti ~ Rising wrote:
thirdly...wayne, you said there is no right proper or ultimate way to experience god..... you and I and most rational thinking people would agree with that, but many religions and people who subscribe to those religions would disagree with that.......as they have become brainwashed and conditioned to believe that only their religion is the 'true path to god'. now I'm not suggesting all religous folk feel this way but I would suggest most do......

Your point is a valid one, and worth a point. From expereince, Buddhism & Islam isn't like this. Buddhism rejoices whatever religion is followed, and Islam celebrates their Jewish & christian brothers/sisters. In fact, the Holy Qu'ran says Christians aren't to be harmed, but helped if need be. I'm less expereinced in Gnostic Chrisitanity, which some saw is more akin to the real message, but i feel kinda sure they also are more welcoming. In fact, if Jesus was an essene, he prob did follow many religions. At the very least, he wasn't Christian, hehe.

A religion also can't be held accountable for things done in it's name. If we go that way, we would need to be consistent and say americans are scum for what they done to native americans, or Irish are scum cause of IRA, or Germans' are scum cause of the two world wars. If we don't hold these nations accountable, and they're similar sociological models, then surely we gotta not hold religion accountable? If we respond to what looks like intolerance in religion, with intolerance & judgement to it, no prizes for guessing what we're are equally perpetuating.

We know the spiritual laws to do with this. It's not important what way folks in religion are to us. It's only important how we are to them. With our love, understanding, tolerance & patience, others that don't already - might experience God. In their own way, .

Take care
Wayne

I understand and appreciate everything you've said there wayne....... you say in jest at the very least jesus wasn't a christian, thats absolutely accurate...just as buddha wasn't a ' buddhist', he was a teacher of the darmha..... in point of fact I don't see 'Buddhism' ( a modern term) as a religion I see it more as a spiritual philosophy for life and for discovering oneself.....

I don't see many native American traditions as religion...again I see their traditions and practices as a spiritual philosophy for life and discovering the divine within and without.....same with old african traditions and practices....maori, aboriginal....etc.... I don;t see many of their traditions as coming under the umberella of ' man made religion',,,,others may disagree but this is my point of view.....

......also to Jim,to comment a little on masculine and feminine energies..........I have perceived various energies and some I would say lean towards masculine or feminie and some seem genderless.........I'm talking about a variety of things here, spiritual presences.....stones, crystals, mountains, rivers....large expanses of waters.... and as for various gods and godesses, it is my understanding that in various traditions, 'gods' or 'godesses' have presided over certain facets of our human personality.....afterall we are living in a world of duality and within each of us resides the masculine and feminie........the objective of attaining 'oneness ' is to unite these qaulities within ourselves and transcend our dualties.............and unite with the divine within which is beyond duality..... ok I'm just writing really quickly here, pushed for time.I'll come back when time allows and try and be more articulate...the operative word being TRY!! ahahah

Here's something that might be worth checking out, ....

www.beyondourdifferences.com

Shakti ~ Rising wrote:

secondly I like to say to Bridget millions of people don't choose their religion, a particular religion can be enforced upon them before they are even old enough to say poopoo.... then all the fundamentalist views of the parents are enforced upon the child being raised....and so a very unhealthy cycle continues.....

It seems like we've had this conversation
before somewhere else I never got
to choose my religion/nationality I was born
into them. I'm not sure I would use the term
"unhealthy cycle" for my religion. There were
parts of the religious organization that was
comforting. As a child you are directed by your
parents/guardians who usually are looking out
for your best interest. As an adult you can
choose your own path, or stay with the one your
parents bestowed on you.

Milarepa wrote:This is all good stuff, . What we're maybe not realising (just going by all our comments) is that our own experiences & understandings of religion, is only valid for us.

There's no proper, right or ultimate way to experience God. Just like there's no proper, right or ultimate way to prepare a potato. What forms our opinions is the media machine to a large extent, and this revels in bringing the bad details from around the world. Before long, we become brainwashed & conditioned, that it's in fact these structured religious paths that are doing these things. There's much hope, love & support religions bring. I'll give an example, well a few...

According to Islam, as well as helping others, it's a muslims duty to help another muslim in need. When i was a practicing muslim i was so thankful for that. I got stranded in england, and muslims helped bring me back to Ireland. They gave me two houses to for myself to live in. Also, down in dublin, i was sad one time and took an overdose. Two muslim doctors went to the cashpoint and got me loads of cash, to get home on christmas eve. The Salvation Army have also helped me lots of times before, with food when i was starving, as well as preists & convents. There's much love, assitance, cameraderie & freindship in religions. If God isn't a sign of that, i don't know what is. Then when we look to Reiki forums, were alrgely folks are on independant spiritual paths. There's very, very few will help another person, when we look at the sunday Reiki shares, of requests for healing, and i include myself in that of course. Makes a person think...

There is, without a doubt, countless folks whom have an intensely divine experience through religion. There's no heirarchy in spiritual paths, and no difference between a christian or a 'spiritual person'. If both are true to what they wish, both are spiritual people. And both are also free, experiencing God, in a way that suits them, cause they choose to expereince it that way.

Not following a religion, and sticking to personal spirituality doesn't make one anymore evolved than a buddhist or Muslim. It's the thought, word & deed that counts, not the platform used to develop it, .

Point for you Jim, very good post, and you're pushed for time also, so it's more valuable!

Take care
Wayne

I see all the folks you mention as helpers
they are generally folks on the front line.
They are not the ones making all the rules
within the Church hierarchy. The helpers are
the good Samaritans that keep the religons
afloat. You will find good samaritans out
side religous groups who would give a helping
hand

I'm kinda curious what rules the church heirarchy made that you dislike, for your above comment? We all take or leave certain rules. For instance in Islam, in Ramadan, i bet most of us here wouldn't care for that month fast. Yet fasting has long been known to be a very important aspect of spirituality. Usui sensei expereinced Reiki through it, for instance. Different strokes for different folks. Yet i've encountered so much love & assistance for these folks who follow spiritual rules, something must be working.

Take care
Wayne

Milarepa wrote:for sure, the most valid & powerful way a person can speak is through personal expereince . My examples show people who's religion has made them help others beyond the normal way a human does. Although you'll notice i did speak of 'rules' within Islam, and Buddhism. The 'highest' person ever helped me was a Catholic Bishop.

I'm kinda curious what rules the church heirarchy made that you dislike, for your above comment? We all take or leave certain rules. For instance in Islam, in Ramadan, i bet most of us here wouldn't care for that month fast. Yet fasting has long been known to be a very important aspect of spirituality. Usui sensei expereinced Reiki through it, for instance. Different strokes for different folks. Yet i've encountered so much love & assistance for these folks who follow spiritual rules, something must be working.

Take care
Wayne

Some rules are ancient. Like Sharon mentioned many
folks have no choice about the religion they join
it comes with their family culture. By the time I
was old enough to a make a decision I was already
indoctrinated. When you make/want tomove away it can
be difficult. Religions imo control your personal
thinking with their rules/regulations. I was 6 years
old when I made my first communion and 7 when I made
my confirmation which also meant taking a pledge to
have no alochol until the age of 25. I had my first
alcohol drink when I was about 33. I went through the
motionsof Confirmation not quite knowing what being a
soldier of God really was all about. We had the ten
commandments to follow and 7 deadly sins to rhyme off
I would say a little to much for a 7 year old to begin
to comprehend. It's been so long I forget what else.
It should have been a spiritual "growing up." but
I cannot say it was. There were other parts of life
that got entwined and made religion complicated. As Jim
said you don't need the middle man. My father always said
you don't need to go to confession to talk to God about
your sins. The good/bad the devil/angel.more labels. You
should not have to answer to anyone but yourself and the
divine if you choose to not carry a child to full term.
I believe that's a personal choice same as who you choose
to partner with in life. So much of what others in my
church decided was right or wrong for public viewing you
could not get married at the main altar or wear white if you
were with child before marriage. The list goes on as the
rules are embedded in stone and carved into your mind. They
were always in your face saving your soul. They have so much
wealth and pagentry like royality parading it and making so
much money bringing/engaging tourist into their domain to show
off and many of their members don't have a pot to go in.

chi_solas wrote:

Some rules are ancient.

This is one of the failures within christianity for example. The archaic rules were appropriate for certain times, to a large extent, things havn't progressed parallel to humanities progression.

chi_solas wrote:
Like Sharon mentioned many
folks have no choice about the religion they join
it comes with their family culture. By the time I
was old enough to a make a decision I was already
indoctrinated. When you make/want tomove away it can
be difficult.

I guess this could be said for a lot of things, family culture is family culture, .

chi_solas wrote:
Religions imo control your personal
thinking with their rules/regulations. I was 6 years
old when I made my first communion and 7 when I made
my confirmation which also meant taking a pledge to
have no alochol until the age of 25. I had my first
alcohol drink when I was about 33. I went through the
motionsof Confirmation not quite knowing what being a
soldier of God really was all about. We had the ten
commandments to follow and 7 deadly sins to rhyme off
I would say a little to much for a 7 year old to begin
to comprehend. It's been so long I forget what else.
It should have been a spiritual "growing up." but
I cannot say it was. There were other parts of life
that got entwined and made religion complicated.

Does this make religion bad, or worthless, or, does it show that what you encountered was systemic spiritual faliure? Have your bad experiences made you feel religion as a whole is no good? I'm really interested, i've had not so good experiences cause of religion also, but some very great ones, this has helped me take a step back from my own judgments, and many would think i've a right to judge, as you yourself, coming from the same island, . Maybe i was lucky, but when i was Christian, i certainly did enjoy it!

Did no-one explain to you what confirmation was all about? I appreciate you felt iy a bit much to take in the 10 commandments, maybe there's a case for doing that older. I know the whole of the western legal system is based on it, so it'd some in useful some time!

chi_solas wrote:
As Jim
said you don't need the middle man. My father always said
you don't need to go to confession to talk to God about
your sins.

you're Dad was quite right. Also, anyone familiar with Christianity, as in the Bible, would also know, like all other religions, we only need to look inside to know God. 'The kingdom of God is witin you', Luke 17.

chi_solas wrote: You should not have to answer to anyone but yourself and the
divine if you choose to not carry a child to full term.
I believe that's a personal choice same as who you choose
to partner with in life. So much of what others in my
church decided was right or wrong for public viewing you
could not get married at the main altar or wear white if you
were with child before marriage. The list goes on as the
rules are embedded in stone and carved into your mind. They
were always in your face saving your soul. They have so much
wealth and pagentry like royality parading it and making so
much money bringing/engaging tourist into their domain to show
off and many of their members don't have a pot to go in.

Yeah, it's been a difficult call with abortion. Either way, the church was gonna offend a sizeable portion of society. I guess they had to stay consistent with no suicide or murder. It's a tricky moral, and possibly scientific dilemma, at what point does a foetus have a right to life. And at what point does a foetus have a soul. If the baby is born, that baby is protected by law. i've no opinion either way, but some might suggest it's a purely materialistic thing to assume it's ok to abort, as the baby is'nt out of the womb yet. When folks look to religion for answers, the religion has an obligation to come up with an answer. Of course, some won't like the answer, but what could they do i wonder.

Take care
Wayne

I can only address my personal experience
and the church I belonged to. It is not
about bashing my Family church. I see a
lot of the same goes on in other large and
smaller churches. Celibacy goes against the
laws of nature. Excluding women as priest
defies equality as humans.

Other folks who belonged to the church may have
had a good lifelong experience. As a child I knew
only the way of my family and community. It was part
of my life style I had nothing to compare it to.

Sins that a 7 year old needs to worry about?
wrath, greed, sloth, pride, lust, envy, and gluttony.


10 Commandments.Again many are over a child's head

I am the Lord thy God, ... Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven images.
Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain.
Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
Honor thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long.
Thou shalt not kill.
Thou shalt not commit adultery.
Thou shalt not steal.
Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.
Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's wife.

When I was 7 years old making confirmation
you have to pass the tests given and please
your teachers,parents,the bishop. All I
remember was the bishop tapping me with his
ring you knew at that point you were confirmed.
I'm sure people world wide may have had a
different experience than me. A follower I was
not. Doubting Thomas was always by my side. As a
child... You were to be seen and not heard. A lot
got stifled in an oppressed society.

What my neighbor is doing within the confines of
their home or with a Dr. of their choice is not
my business. Each person is responsible for their
own decision. I am not here to judge others.

Peace and Goodwill to all

Many thanks for sharing all this Bridget, . I know my own daughter (8 years old) is really looking forward to confirmation, she always comes back home real excited about speaking to the preist in school. It's actually a big reason why we're even doing it. I can only surmise, the difference in experiences is either to do with chance, i.e. the location, or else views within the church have shifted somewhat. I hope it's the latter!

What i'm getting from your chat with me, is that things you've experienced go right against the totally free way you feel things are meant to be. I appreciate your view, .

Take care
Wayne