Reiki discussions 'fake' the natural experience otherwise ?

Salman wrote:
hi buddies

This thread resulted as an off-shoot in a thread called "I don't need Symbols, I got Kotodama"

http://www.reikilearninglounge.com/the-reiki-symbols-f6/i-don-t-need-the-symbols-i-got-kotodama-t1192.htm


as this topic has a lot of ramifications about the possible 'flavouring' of our reiki experiences through what others share with us about their own, it is expedient if we continue the discussion in an independent thread here

over to you Frank
............................

Frank wrote:
Hi Wayne,

Milarepa wrote:Or, the fact that when i was told Reiki entered the crown, i felt it did. and that it came from the Seika Tanden, so i felt it coming from there instead. All so called 'milestones' at important parts of my understanding. Yet also at places where i'd already been told 'this is the way it is'.

And that is exactly the reason why people actually shouldn't read (or write) books about the subject, post at discussion boards/forums and why level 2 students shouldn't talk about their experiences to a level 1 student or something similar.
A good spiritual teacher will never explain beforehand what the student might experience.

If someone does tell you (read "one") what you ("one") might experience, or worse.. what you should experience, chances are high that you will experience it. However, not because you genuinely experience it.. but because your mind created the experience.

I try to practise Usui-sensei's teachings as close as possible for me and in the Usui Reiki Ryōhō style that I practise the teacher never explains the purpose of a meditation and never tells the student what he or she might feel.

If a meditation really works, the student should discover it's purpose and it's effects just by practising it.
You should have no (or as little as possible) expectations or foreknowledge. One should approach every meditation with a blank mind. (I know from experience that this can be very hard when you do think you already know something. Very, very hard.. but luckily not impossible!).

In the Usui Reiki Ryōhō style that I practise a student at the end of Shōden shouldn't share his/her experiences with someone who just started at Shōden level. (Shōden has various stages and if taught properly it can take a few months or even a year to reach the point at which a student might progress to the first part of Okuden.)
Another example: a student who completed the fist meditation of Okuden Kōki shouldn't talk about his/her experiences to someone just beginning with that meditation.


Regarding symbols and mantras (shirushi and jumon): in Usui Reiki Ryōhō a student would first meditate with the mantra. Only when he/she has fully experienced what the mantra is about he/she is handed the symbol (please note that the name of such a symbol is -not- the same as the mantra). The student actually connects the energetic experience he/she learned with a visual symbol.

Milarepa wrote:should i really accpet tihngs without checking myself.

No.
The best thing, from my perspective, is to let go of everything you think you already know and find a real good teacher who does not tell you what you might or should experience.. who just explains how you should carry out a particular technique or meditation. I believe that this is the only way to truly experience what is true of all that is claimed and said about spiritual energy or spiritual development and what is nonsense. (And there surely is a lot of nonsense about spiritual energy/development out there..)

Hope this helps.

*Gasshō*
Frank

hiya Frank,
thanks for the advice buddy! although i wasn't looking any for myself, . Kotodama has been spoke about recently by other members, instead of making the topic generally (which might have annoyed members if they thought i was making a topic about their views, which i wasn't), i made the topic about my own past. I often use myself in topics, personal example is really best when we type we know what we're talking about then, .

can i ask why you feel folks shouldn't post at forums? you've got 80 posts here yourself buddy.

general comment for all of us: As far as the purpose of this forum is concerned, Reiki4all was a forum that really helped me in my growth of Reiki, and i made some great freinds there, without the forum, and the freinds i made, i still wouldn't have a clue bout things. Once it went, i felt there a strong need for something to not only replace it, but build upon it. In this way, all opinions are valid, and all are welcome. i'd encourage everyone, if they felt comfortable, to give advice as they see fit. It's RLL's whole purpose. .

warmest wishes
Wayne

Hi,

Milarepa wrote:can i ask why you feel folks shouldn't post at forums? you've got 80 posts here yourself buddy.

I know Something you might not know: I myself am the founder of two Reiki forums: a Dutch Reiki forum and a Belgian one.
So it does seem quite contradictory when I say that people shouldn't post on forums about this kind of subject.
I have also learned a lot by reading and posting at forums. I even found two teachers that way.

I already explained why I think that people shouldn't post at forums. My statement should be a bit expanded though: people shouldn't talk about their personal experiences where people who haven't experienced it themselves can read it; people should not say what someone might or should experience.

You practically explained why. If someone tells a student he will of should feel something, chances are high that he actually feels it. However, not because he genuinely feels it, but because his mind creates it.

Of course it is okay to talk about Reiki, it's history and to give advice on treatment methods. But people shouldn't discuss their experiences where people who haven't experienced it themselves can read it. And I explained how that works within Usui Reiki Ryōhō.

Forums have many advantages. But when people tell each other what you might feel or experience there is a huge disadvantage: this 'knowledge' might be a huge blockade on the path of someone who hasn't experienced it yet (because the experience might be created by the mind in stead of being authentic).

But this might be a bit off-topic.

*Gasshō*
Frank

this is cool, thanks for explaining, . what way does your above views materialise on your forums?

For me, and at least my own influnce here, it's not important that folks are lead by others. down a right or wrong path. what's important is that they keep journeying. folks can make their own minds up, and mistakes. always bearing in mind, what i regard as a mistake, or you, or anyone else, is anothers truth. what's not useful for me, is useful for another.

warmest wishes
wayne

Hi,

I think eventually Reiki teaches us to find our own truths, follow our own paths, so I do not see any long range harm being done by sharing. If you never get to the point where you become an individual in Reiki, then possibly it`s not for you to begin with.
If one looks at others as an indicator to where they are in their growth, or if they want another`s experience they are missing the point anyways.Your not doing this to discover someone else...lol.
Growth is a time consuming(years and years) progression. Seems that a considerable amount of people now want to do level 1 to master inside of a year. That alone can cause more crap to happen then listening to others experiences.

So...we listen to others and try it their way, and find out it leads no where for us personally. Then a new road begins, and we have the opportunity to find the path thats right for us once again.
In my opinion there is no one right way to practice the system anymore. We lost that opportunity when Usui passed on. It`s about small variations in practice while staying inside the group of core practices originally taught.I see people with differing abilities in Reiki, some have natural abilities that enhance or retract from the experience. With this in mind,individual practices have to vary.

If there is a problem...it comes down to this. Does one want to be a Reiki historian?...A Reiki practioner? or both.

I saw the term used in "The Reiki Source Book"..."Spiritual Materialist". Those who study the information instead of practicing the system.

We need a balance.

One needs a basic foundation of understanding to progress.

Yet...

Enlightenment does not come from knowing what size shoe Takata sensi wore....it comes from practicing the system.

I am fairly certain that most of the practices we adopt and then abandon, serve a purpose. We abandoned them because we became AWARE of a limitation...This awareness takes us farther down the path of self realization, which, of course, is where we hoped to be heading anyways. We are such impatient creatures, most of the time we miss half the experience we are trying to have.

It is nice that we have this Reiki System....that can be so many different things for so many different people to experience.

Jim

Teaching the Reiki System brings
about much insight as to were folks
are on their life's journey. Like
any profesional there is a trust
that personal issues revealed during
class is confidential. If some one
wants to relate their personal experience
on a Reiki Forum so others may learn from
it I have to admire their courage to go
public so others can gain knowledge from
their experience.

Frank I understand what you are implying
when you say we should not tell folks what
they will experience during a Reiki rituals
I find that it's OK to tell them that there
is no right or wrong and that people have
different experiences. I do not like to lead
someone blindly into a ritual without having
a brief dialog about the symbol's function
during the rituals.

i'm kinda of the opposite end with you folks in this. i'll share a perfect example why.

i'd mentioned at different points i had different experiences in the way i felt Reiki took a route. and this was surely because my peers were suggesting this already.

this lead me to wonder, how come there's such a difference? how come i can experience such a difference? It became really simple. The expereince of Reiki, being an auric one, (and in line with what Takata sensei might have been suggesting) tells me that Reiki is manifest all around me. and just like if i place (what i'll call), my Reiki awareness in say, my feet now, i can also place my awareness anywhere else. This can maybe be Reiki moving through my crown, or maybe my Seika Tanden. it doesn't really matter, all that is happening is my awareness is acting in a certain way. so i'm aware of Reiki in a certain way. In reality, it could be said it's all ways.

I wouldn't have been able to intellectually and experientially know this, had i not listened to the (in essence correct) advice of my Reiki peers, at those different times, about what way things were to them. Provided i continued to question things, i'd be in a position to make a much informed choice through my varied xpereinces.

how we use opinions from peers is important, and not that it's gave. Even mistakes, aren't really that, but are opportunities.

warmest wishes
Wayne

Milarepa wrote: Some time ago, naturally being influenced by our Reiki peers, without a thought i believed (and applied) that the symbols were only something for beginners to use. And that after a time, i wouldn't need them.

One of the newer buzz words around then was Kotodama. Jeez, that word itself seemed to bring up something mysterious (in fact, it still does, hehe). In general, it's taught by many that Kotodama in some way replaces symbols. We can command the Reiki experience as if we've drew the symbols and uttered the usual names. Bypassing the standard practice sure did seem to me to be advancing.

This was further reinforced by the seemingly spontaneous ability to 'switch' between the various symbols expereinces. The fact that i'd already heard others could do this had nothing to do with that of course! Or, the fact that when i was told Reiki entered the crown, i felt it did. and that it came from the Seika Tanden, so i felt it coming from there instead. All so called 'milestones' at important parts of my understanding. Yet also at places where i'd already been told 'this is the way it is'.

so, i 'progressed' along to Kotodama. Or, at least, what i thought was kotodama. After all, these folks who've got the ear of the originality sources in Japan, know what they're talking about right?

when i'm taught that symbols are no longer needed in Reiki, cause we've got Kotodama to both command the experience, and to initiate, there's something that's just not sitting right....

(I wanna make a disclaimer. I've never been to Japan, i havn't travelled outside Europe. I'm also not lucky enough to have been able to have the contact with living or dead students of Usui sensei, as quite a few others seem to have. So maybe i've got things wrong., but..)

The simplified phonetic version largely taught, is regarded as simplified, possibly, because the perceived effect (spiritual experience), is regarded in a simple. Perception is all in Reiki. Change our perception, we change the experience.

Kotodama is the application of both the written and verbal form of words, that create a spiritual experience.

This naturally has lead me now to wonder just what it is that's being passed onto me and should i really accpet tihngs without checking myself. After all, both HSZSN & DKM are collections of words. How could symbols not be in our Kotodama?

Our Reiki symbols create our Kotodama.

warmest wishes
Wayne

Wayne,

This is an AMAZING POST! Thank You.

Being Regular Joe it is my belief that we can learn everywhere be it in classroom or train, restaurant, bar or any other place. I do not see any “sin” in asking and answering question. Sure not all questions are created equal. Some may be easy while other might be tough. Some are asked by people who are genially interested in something while other might be done by skeptics. As Reiki Practitioners/RMT we shouldn't feel uncomfortable even when asked by skeptics. For one I am skeptic myself when I “see” people trashing Ms. Takata. So, shouldn't I in this case be allowed to ask question or even more importantly question their motivation behind such trashing?

If someone does tell you (read "one") what you ("one") might experience, or worse.. what you should experience, chances are high that you will experience it. However, not because you genuinely experience it.. but because your mind created the experience.

Does it mean if person interested in learning reiki or interested in Reiki treatment ask what he/she might experience during the attunement/treatment-is it safe etc should be told: “Well, I would be happy to tell you that but in doing so I might influence you in your experience therefore you are on your one buddy-you will need to figure this out on your own??

Furthermore what is the difference between the “genuine experience” and one created by our mind?? If I experience reiki in my crown chakra so who is to say that this is not the true experience but rather one created by my mind because somebody told me I might experience reiki in my crown? Even if I experienced something because somebody told me ...I still have experienced it. To simplify if I put my hand on hot object and sustain burns does it really make difference did I do it because somebody told me or I did it on my own. Are my burns fake just because somebody told me to do so?

People react differently to things (even to Reiki) and I think that it is responsible on our part as RMT to explain that student might or might not experience some reactions to reiki attunement.

Thank You

Regards

Hi,

Rzukic wrote:Does it mean if person interested in learning reiki or interested in Reiki treatment ask what he/she might experience during the attunement/treatment-is it safe etc should be told: “Well, I would be happy to tell you that but in doing so I might influence you in your experience therefore you are on your one buddy-you will need to figure this out on your own??

Of course it is fine to say a treatment or attunement is safe. It is also fine to say that the practitioner works with spiritual energy and that an attunement attunes someone to spiritual energy.

However, in my opinion, it is not good to say what exactly it will feel like. For example "During a treatment you can feel warmth or tingling" or "You could see all kinds of colours during the attunement".

Rzukic wrote:Furthermore what is the difference between the “genuine experience” and one created by our mind??

A great teacher I know explained it to someone at a Reiki forum from an other country recently. I will put it in my own words.
We have senses. Sight for example. The brain will turn what the eyes experience into images. Those images are what we experience as "seeing".
But the mind can also create many images while the eyes are closed. Seeing something that is really there definitely differs from seeing an image created by our own mind, although I believe that studies on the brain revealed that the brain treats those images the same. So although the brain thinks an image created by the mind is the same as an image created by what the eyes experience(/see), it is obviously different.

Why would it be different with "feeling" (whether it concerns feeling a physical object or spiritual energy, it doesn't really matter) ?

Sight might be the best example to understand the underlying principle.

Having a real spiritual experience is different from an experience created by the mind, although the brain thinks both are real.

It is a complex matter and I find it hard to explain. I think this is the best I can do to explain it. It took me quite a while to write this post

So that is why we shouldn't tell a student what he or she might feel when chanting a certain mantra or whatever. If you tell a client before a treatment that he or she will experience warmth, chances are that he/she will experience warmth.. but not because there really flows an energy with warmth as one of its characteristics, but because the mind created the feeling.

Every energy (frequency) has its own characteristics. Some are warm, some quite cold, heavy or light as a feather. If you immerse someone in a light energy, but you tell him/her beforehand that it will be a very warm energy.. chances are that he or she will experience the warmth in stead of the actual energy. In this case there was no 'warm energy', but the mind created the experience of warmth.

That is why it is very important to explain -how- a student should carry out a meditation or technique, but not what it -feels- like.
If the technique, meditation or mantra really works, the student will experience it after a little while of practising.

*Gasshō*
Frank

rzukic wrote:

Frank wrote:If someone does tell you (read "one") what you ("one") might experience, or worse.. what you should experience, chances are high that you will experience it. However, not because you genuinely experience it.. but because your mind created the experience.

Furthermore what is the difference between the “genuine experience” and one created by our mind?? If I experience reiki in my crown chakra so who is to say that this is not the true experience but rather one created by my mind because somebody told me I might experience reiki in my crown? Even if I experienced something because somebody told me ...I still have experienced it.

very interesting discussion

it is indeed very difficult to say things decisively, or better saying, generally. There is no doubt that our mind 'creates' realities, and this is a good big gift! our mind has a terrific propensity to 'fill in the blanks' for the areas where it has little or no information... our imagination and supposition faculties are always at work!

during attunements/reiki treatments when we feel 'something' is happening in our 'head region' (intentionally i have avoided the use of crown chakra), our mind opts to put a title to this experience... it searches for analogies, and often try to put a logical explanation to what we have felt/experienced... it is our ego mostly that always tries to declare 'i know whats happening'...when we try to 'tag' that experience with our existing comprehension or knowledge, we learn! this is a great potential for discoveries.

lets see if we are told beforehand that the 'something' that would be occuring in our 'head region' will actually be reiki sensations/opening of chakras, and the head region itself is seat of 'crown chakra', then as the actual experiencce occurs, we will be mostly bent to 'find' what we were told beforehand... our 'knowledge' of things will obstacle us for having landed to a 'uniqueness' of our own experience... our mind may imitate since it had been 'programmed' to expect that such thing will most definitely happen....

while reiki attunement/reiki session is always a unique experience, it is well possible that we will try to correlate everything that we experienced to what we were told pre-hand... in this logical wroking of our mind, we might lose sight of something that we experienced, but were not told beforehand...

on the other side, when we give a beforehand knowledge to somebody that such and such things will happen during an attunement/treatment, and such things dont happen precisely, the initiate/patient is often given an easy locus to feel that the initiation/treatment was not 'perfect'

does this suggest that we CANNOT share anything beforehand or that we must not share our experiences to those buddies who have not experienced such things themselves as of yet ???

i feel that this is not always a win-a-win situation... quite possible that an info which we relay to a buddy prematurely, is the one which changes the course of his path sometimes later, since what we suggested today, was applicable to him some time later, when, practically speaking, we were not available for him to counsel!

having tied up to hard and fast rules, we might have to use intutition and judgement as per person to person... since there's no size fits all..


quite interestingly, it is not always 'best' to let the student sit with 'blank' mind for the meditation... there are certain 'intermittent' things that occur during meditation that are quite distracting for the person during meditation... split-thinking, drifting to sleep, associative jumping of thoughts, etc. are the prime examples... while it is the duty of the teacher to guide the student what he must do, it is also a duty to 'warn' him what are the potential problems associated with the doing of an exercise...

a little knowledge is always dangerous, but when this little knowledge is relayed by an experienced teacher who has full knowledge of things, such little knowledge, notwithstanding it is little, might not be so much dangerous

even if our mind can 'fake' certain experiences since we were told beforehand about them, there is no 'harm' in lets doing it... overtime we can understand where is our mind working, and where is the experience itself is happening, and having risen to such ability, we sure have another feather to our hat

can't help quoting a beatiful phrase :

Jim wrote:
I am fairly certain that most of the practices we adopt and then abandon, serve a purpose. We abandoned them because we became AWARE of a limitation...This awareness takes us farther down the path of self realization, which, of course, is where we hoped to be heading anyways. We are such impatient creatures, most of the time we miss half the experience we are trying to have.

take care

salman

Frank wrote:Hi,

Milarepa wrote:can i ask why you feel folks shouldn't post at forums? you've got 80 posts here yourself buddy.

I know Something you might not know: I myself am the founder of two Reiki forums: a Dutch Reiki forum and a Belgian one.
So it does seem quite contradictory when I say that people shouldn't post on forums about this kind of subject.
I have also learned a lot by reading and posting at forums. I even found two teachers that way.

I already explained why I think that people shouldn't post at forums. My statement should be a bit expanded though: people shouldn't talk about their personal experiences where people who haven't experienced it themselves can read it; people should not say what someone might or should experience.

You practically explained why. If someone tells a student he will of should feel something, chances are high that he actually feels it. However, not because he genuinely feels it, but because his mind creates it.

Of course it is okay to talk about Reiki, it's history and to give advice on treatment methods. But people shouldn't discuss their experiences where people who haven't experienced it themselves can read it. And I explained how that works within Usui Reiki Ryōhō.

Forums have many advantages. But when people tell each other what you might feel or experience there is a huge disadvantage: this 'knowledge' might be a huge blockade on the path of someone who hasn't experienced it yet (because the experience might be created by the mind in stead of being authentic).

But this might be a bit off-topic.

*Gasshō*
Frank

Not sure I agree with you on this Frank.

On one hand, I see where you are coming from, and I feel it has more to do with the style of the teacher, than having the discussion. When speaking of things spiritual, teaching in absolutes is probably not the best way to go about things, since there really are no absolutes in spiritual endeavors. The experiences are almost always circumstantial and individualized based on who, what, when, where, and why.

But on the other hand, many people come here confused, flustered, frustrated, and even a little (or a lot) scared. Their original teacher was terrible and/or abandoned them. They have need for information, comfort, and solace that the things they are experiencing does not mean they are crazy.

Personally, when discussing things like this, I try to always state things in a way, that would let that person know that some types of feelings or experiences can be common, but that just allowing the experience to happen and be aware of what it is they are experiencing is important. I try to be comforting and allow those I'm talking with to feel comfortable with what I'm saying.

But if we harbor all this information that we have through personal experience, and choose not to share, even for what appears to be valid reasons (I think your reasoning is valid to a point, but ultimately doesn't help) then where do these scared people go to get their information, comfort and solace?

Frank I understand that power of
suggestion can get in the way. A
person may expect to feel warm
during a Reiki session and it may
happen for them.

It's ok not to feel anything
often a blockage stops the flow.
The flow of energy can be delayed
due to a blockage that needs time
to be removed. Emotional stuff is
not always acknowledged it can be
hidden or sometimes folks think
they have dealt with it but they
may have just touched the tip of the
iceberg that's only about 10% above
and the other 90% is still below the
water line.

I tell folks that sometimes they might
feel warmth, cold,twich, itch,peaceful
feel sad, cry,laugh, see colors, it's
ok even if they experience just quietness.
Everyone has different life experiences
even within our families.

I see no harm in telling clients what they
might experience as long as they understand
that their experience can/will be different
no 2 clients have the same experience they
might have similar experiences each is unique
to their life's path. & clients also have
different experiences with each Reiki session


I know for me each day is different I do not
have the same experience each day. In my travels
I meet many new people even in just passing so
my blue print is always changing inside and out.

Thanks Frank for you response.


I appreciate that you have concerns and best interest of the student in the mind. I believe it is fair to say that we all here share that very same core value. However, when we go about “how” & “why” we seem to have different approaches. Which is also fine.

Having a real spiritual experience is different from an experience created by the mind, although the brain thinks both are real.

One thing though I hope we all agree upon is that when it comes to things such as “Reality” “Truth” that it is fair question to ask “What the heck is reality or the truth” I do not believe that it has been proven except that it is highly subjective experience. Don't they say “it is not reality itself -It is our perception of that reality” If person A experiences something as “hot” and person B experiences it as “cold” ..what value will that reality be given or by whom. Who will be the judge. Even a Judge has a mind so how we can be sure that his mind didn't create some reality of his own.

It is very complicated and by withholding information IMO we just adding to this. Some people might experience kundalini awaking and be very confused about it (or even worse it could be quite scary and dangerous) so why not share information.

I appreciate places such as RLL greatly and sometimes you get great info that was just that missing piece of puzzle. It is great place where we all can grow (some more than the others . The life is short and if we can learn something by applying some shortcuts I do not see any reasons why not. And if somebody had great experience and is brave enough to share than I most certainly appreciate it for I might even make it might work for me.

Regards,

Resko

Perhaps in an ideal world we would not have to offer any words, any suggestion, but the majority of people that wish to receive Reiki or be attuned, already have preconceived ideas, have read or researched, it is being Reiki, that you convey that this is a divine an unique experience, raising the vibration and working to a high vibration yourself, leaves no doubt to recipient that the experience no matter what it may be is right for them at this time.

My muma attend some of my classes, she came to a Reiki I and then later on, Reiki II, she was truly wonderful to work with, she hadn’t studied, or read a thing, really no idea, other than what she had experienced in her healings fromme. perhaps because she had no preconceived ideas, her attunemts where very vivid, clear and powerful, she just took them as they were brought to her. And fully stayed within the moment and journey.

I see others that are looking, and find not what they seek, it afterwards that explanations and support are truly needed. but we should share, it is in our nature to do so, we can not truly take a soul of its path, only highlight possible avenues of interest, perhaps helpful insights. blessings

Dharma, like your mother I had
no previous idea what was going
to happen during attunement and
I had a wonderful experience.

Hi,

Frank wrote:
Having a real spiritual experience is different from an experience created by the mind, although the brain thinks both are real.

I agree with you..and i don`t....The brain knows things it`s famaliar with and has patterned. When it runs into something that it has not experienced, it grasps for anything it can hold onto for reference.

...the brain has limitations when experiencing it`s existance. The brain`s limitations are also part of what shapes the experience.The brain`s limitations do as much to define the experience as it`s abilities.

blah, blah,blah...it`s hard to tell whats real and what is not.Yup the Buddhists we`re right...everything is an illusion...what a suprise.

I simple computer can be surrounded by many things it can never sense...I believe our brain`s to be the same.

So...lets add some confusion to this talk...

I want to see if this spins your hat around once you think about it...

I have had a total of maybe 4 bad dreams my entire life. One happened two weeks ago...to make a long story short...details would help but i do not have time..

So...I have this spirit visit me in my dream...It`s not with me yet, but I know it`s coming, as a part of me, is trying to wake the rest of me, from sleep. Most definitly a part of me is feeling threatened. What created the fear in my subconscious?

I see this spirit in my sleep, wake up and there it is, hovering over my bed, with the intention of doing things not welcomed.
I`ve seen three very clear spiritual beings since my attunements. The first time my mind had trouble capturing a visual pattern for it. Now the last two times it has happened, my brain defines them in a quicker manner.

So I have a being visiting my subconscious, then a moment later, my conscious mind sees it in exactly the same form that i saw it in my dream. And, as per usual with spirit, I got to feel as well as see the aparition.There is no feeling like a spirit in close proximity. I know exactly that feeling and it is not confuseable with any other experience(sensory) that i`ve had in life.

So, learned crowd...please tell me what you think of this, and how you might see it relating to this thread?

Jim

I went in search of healing and Reiki
found me. Then I was interested in
meeting other Reiki folks and discovered
Reiki sites/forums. Some informaton was
different from what I had learned. Then I
had to assess what made sense to me. I have
grown adjusted made changes and learned to
use/trust my intuition as my guide. I have
learned much and really appreciate the honesty
and sharing that happens here not to mention the
interviews would be a dis -service to Reiki
teachers:
Jeffrey Hotchkiss
Jim Ewing
Mari Hall
Lawrence Ellyard
Taggart King
Don Beckett
Frank Arjave Petter
Robert Fueston

Frank wrote:
Having a real spiritual experience is different from an experience created by the mind, although the brain thinks both are real.

I strongly disagree with this statement.

I would counter that there is no difference between a "real" spiritual experience and one "created by the mind" unless you believe it is so. If you do believe it so, then I feel you will be chasing the Dragon forever (or at least as long as it takes for you to realize otherwise.)

How does one classify "real" and "created by the mind" anyways?

My Shamanic teacher said to us a month or so ago, "some people question whether your journeys are real. Whether the experiences you have are real or just your imagination. I would say that of course they are your imagination, isn't that wonderful?"

Thaak wrote:

Frank wrote:
Having a real spiritual experience is different from an experience created by the mind, although the brain thinks both are real.

I strongly disagree with this statement.

I would counter that there is no difference between a "real" spiritual experience and one "created by the mind" unless you believe it is so. If you do believe it so, then I feel you will be chasing the Dragon forever (or at least as long as it takes for you to realize otherwise.)

How does one classify "real" and "created by the mind" anyways?

My Shamanic teacher said to us a month or so ago, "some people question whether your journeys are real. Whether the experiences you have are real or just your imagination. I would say that of course they are your imagination, isn't that wonderful?"

It seems you have a great teacher Andy! Thanks for sharing! On the side note I hope you do not mind me asking have you made any experiences with Reiki Mandalas and Reiki Essences?

Regards,

Resko

Thaak wrote:

But on the other hand, many people come here confused, flustered, frustrated, and even a little (or a lot) scared. Their original teacher was terrible and/or abandoned them. They have need for information, comfort, and solace that the things they are experiencing does not mean they are crazy.

I was in same state of affairs when i got to reiki4all for the first time, and gradually things took a 360 degree

Take care

Salman

Reikijim wrote: Hi,

Frank wrote:
Having a real spiritual experience is different from an experience created by the mind, although the brain thinks both are real.

I agree with you..and i don`t....The brain knows things it`s famaliar with and has patterned. When it runs into something that it has not experienced, it grasps for anything it can hold onto for reference.

...the brain has limitations when experiencing it`s existance. The brain`s limitations are also part of what shapes the experience.The brain`s limitations do as much to define the experience as it`s abilities.

blah, blah,blah...it`s hard to tell whats real and what is not.Yup the Buddhists we`re right...everything is an illusion...what a suprise.

I simple computer can be surrounded by many things it can never sense...I believe our brain`s to be the same.

So...lets add some confusion to this talk...

I want to see if this spins your hat around once you think about it...

I have had a total of maybe 4 bad dreams my entire life. One happened two weeks ago...to make a long story short...details would help but i do not have time..

So...I have this spirit visit me in my dream...It`s not with me yet, but I know it`s coming, as a part of me, is trying to wake the rest of me, from sleep. Most definitly a part of me is feeling threatened. What created the fear in my subconscious?

I see this spirit in my sleep, wake up and there it is, hovering over my bed, with the intention of doing things not welcomed.
I`ve seen three very clear spiritual beings since my attunements. The first time my mind had trouble capturing a visual pattern for it. Now the last two times it has happened, my brain defines them in a quicker manner.

So I have a being visiting my subconscious, then a moment later, my conscious mind sees it in exactly the same form that i saw it in my dream. And, as per usual with spirit, I got to feel as well as see the aparition.There is no feeling like a spirit in close proximity. I know exactly that feeling and it is not confuseable with any other experience(sensory) that i`ve had in life.

So, learned crowd...please tell me what you think of this, and how you might see it relating to this thread?

Jim

The spirit is there, within both your realms, what you are experiencing is lucid dreaming, a paradoxical state of consciousness, awake when asleep, and the cheeky spirit knows it, and as soon as your subconscious gets with the gig you move from lucid to controlled dreaming, surrendering to the lucid so that you may again become in control, call forth your guide before you sleep and ask that she surround you with divine protection, so that you may journey in peace and light. The spirit is kinda messing with you, and while you sleep, not so kind, but really what they are drawn to, although may never admit it, is your light and healing, so my lovely that is what you should offer them, they will either leave without return, or accept the healing and light.

Thaak wrote:

Frank wrote:
Having a real spiritual experience is different from an experience created by the mind, although the brain thinks both are real.

I strongly disagree with this statement.

I would counter that there is no difference between a "real" spiritual experience and one "created by the mind" unless you believe it is so. If you do believe it so, then I feel you will be chasing the Dragon forever (or at least as long as it takes for you to realize otherwise.)

How does one classify "real" and "created by the mind" anyways?

My Shamanic teacher said to us a month or so ago, "some people question whether your journeys are real. Whether the experiences you have are real or just your imagination. I would say that of course they are your imagination, isn't that wonderful?"

Beautifully said!

Thaak wrote:

I would counter that there is no difference between a "real" spiritual experience and one "created by the mind" unless you believe it is so. If you do believe it so, then I feel you will be chasing the Dragon forever (or at least as long as it takes for you to realize otherwise.)

How does one classify "real" and "created by the mind" anyways?

this is true for sure. my mind created the routes for Reiki travelling, imo, the routes are real. i cant' see any seperatness with my mind & what can be real. if my mind creates an experience for me, then th eexperience is real, cause, i experienced it, hehe. It might not be exaclty wha ti thought it was (i.e. Reiki only going through crown), but the experience did happen. I cant' see a conflict between mind & ourselves, unless we see the mind as an adversary. this in itself is a trick of the ego, imo, and is fraught with problems. a never ending battle, such as andy's chasing the dragon anaolgy.

the question how does one classify what's realy or what's created by the mind, is a great one to pose!

warmest wishes
Wayne

rzukic wrote:
It seems you have a great teacher Andy! Thanks for sharing! On the side note I hope you do not mind me asking have you made any experiences with Reiki Mandalas and Reiki Essences?

Regards,

Resko

Thanks Resko. My experiences with Mandalas is mostly shamanic in nature. I'm not sure what Reiki Essences are, but if it is anything like Flower, Gem, Stone, or Animal Essences, then yes. I have channeled Reiki into a glass of water, so that in drinking the water one could experience the Reiki energy on a slow and progressive type way. I've done this for myself, and it definitely helped my irritated stomach and heartburn. I've done this for others who have had lower back pain or heart burn and it helped them as well. Especially since we all wanted to sit around, talk and play games, rather than spend half an hour in silence while I gave them a session.

Thaak wrote:

Frank wrote:
Having a real spiritual experience is different from an experience created by the mind, although the brain thinks both are real.

I strongly disagree with this statement.

I would counter that there is no difference between a "real" spiritual experience and one "created by the mind" unless you believe it is so. If you do believe it so, then I feel you will be chasing the Dragon forever (or at least as long as it takes for you to realize otherwise.)

How does one classify "real" and "created by the mind" anyways?

My Shamanic teacher said to us a month or so ago, "some people question whether your journeys are real. Whether the experiences you have are real or just your imagination. I would say that of course they are your imagination, isn't that wonderful?"

I do want to clarify that I in no way am trying to say that Frank's spiritual experiences are any less or greater than anyone else's.