Reiki Treatment & the Need for Permission...

Milarepa wrote:
I wanted to really speak about this, between you & I. We've spoke briefly about ethics over the last few days. I'm kinda confused about things i'm assuming over this, .

To use your words, Reiki being 'intuitive & spiritual'. As far as i was aware, it's usually a part of spiritual ethics to get anothers express permission before we enter into a spiritual act for them. To do otherwise is forcing our own understanding of spirituality onto them.

You'd mentioned before to me, it'd be hard to explain why permisssion isn't required, unless one expriences it. Andy, just cause one doesn't feel the need to talk about it, doesn't mean one doesn't experience similar things. It's no biggy. I had one such memorable expereince with a Reiki4All member.

Even with that, and knowing they are obviously into Reiki, i went and got permission. Reason is, we're living in a physical world. In a contruct we call 'society'. There are all manner of ethics, of which spirituality is only a part. To attempt to portray one set of ethics over another, is not the best way for even the individual to do, imo.

In other words, spiritual ethics only hold complete dominion over a spiritual plane. In a physical plane, such as earth, we have other ethics equally as valid. We can quite easily place them all on an equal par. There's no conflict in this. .

Take care
Wayne

I understand what you are saying. I really do. But so that we are on the same page with what I’m talking about, let me give you a couple of my definitions of things.

Reiki being intuitive and spiritual:

Many of the techniques used in Reiki (i.e. Byosen Scanning) rely heavily on intuition or understanding some ambiguous physical sensation. When I scan someone, I get spikes of heat or sometimes tingling when I am over a place that is out of balance or painful to the client. Other people feel either those or many times other sensations.

Being able to sense an area that is sick or injured can be scientifically verified through a simple series of blind tests. But its not hard science. Even though I hit a significant percentage of correct locations, I still don’t know what the problem is. Through experience I may be able to tell that a particular temperature or type of tingling when over the liver means cancer or arterial blockage around the heart or whatever.

But largely, these sensations are highly individualized, dare I say unique to each individual, that it is hard to quantify or qualify them as anything more than an experiential hunch. Please don’t read into this that I don’t listen to my intuition, because I do, I’m just speaking from a scientific or medical standpoint.

How do I define medically that I “feel” or “see” something without the appropriate tools to do so (or even if all the available medical tools can’t “feel” or “see” the issue.)

You hear tons of stories of medical intuitives, and folks able to “see” disease, or that they have certain “knowings” about something. Essentially psychic impressions. These can be incredibly accurate (sometimes moreso than an MRI or CAT scan.) However, and again, it is unique to each individual how they figure this stuff out. How do you apply medical rules and ethics to something that science and the medical field officially agree doesn’t exist?

I know the argument, that each individual can apply the ethics to themselves as appropriate. And this is fine. But it doesn’t deal with the real issue.

Reiki is essentially faith healing. It is part of metaphysics.

That being said, I do apply ethics to myself. I know, personally, what it is like to have a belief system thrust on you. And when I lost my faith, I know what it was like for the “born-agains” to tell me I was going to hell because I didn’t buy into their brand of thought control. So I would never apply myself to someone without some sort of permission.

For those who are not psychic or at least get a very strong intuitive answer when a query is made, the whole idea of asking someone’s higher self for permission doesn’t feel like its enough.

For those who are psychic, they know it is enough. They can’t explain it in terms that satisfies those who have not had that experience. Yet for them, they have met the ethical requirement.

All of the experiences I’ve had where I asked a higher self or knew someone needed help, was with people I already knew how they felt about Reiki and already had physical permission to do what I could when I got those intuitive urges.

I suggest that people just use common sense.

But until the paradigm of how the medical field and science deals with alternative healing methods changes, it will more than likely be considered unethical to allow a “quack with a hunch” to do much more than what is already allowed in hospitals with Reiki.

Thaak wrote:
How do I define medically that I “feel” or “see” something without the appropriate tools to do so (or even if all the available medical tools can’t “feel” or “see” the issue.)

Hi Andy,
I wasn't looking for you to define it medically, i just wanted you to explain exactly how you knew the animals recieved Reiki. .

Thaak wrote:
You hear tons of stories of medical intuitives, and folks able to “see” disease, or that they have certain “knowings” about something. Essentially psychic impressions. These can be incredibly accurate (sometimes moreso than an MRI or CAT scan.) However, and again, it is unique to each individual how they figure this stuff out. How do you apply medical rules and ethics to something that science and the medical field officially agree doesn’t exist?

The question should be asked, why the medical community even have these ethics in the first place. I've gave one of the answers already. It's very important for a person to be as involved in their healing as much as possible. If they don't even know they're being healed, how can they be as involved?

Thaak wrote:
For those who are psychic, they know it is enough. They can’t explain it in terms that satisfies those who have not had that experience. Yet for them, they have met the ethical requirement.

Bro, you're generalizing here a bit. Granted, i may not know next weeks lottery numbers, but i do have 'moments' like has been talked about, i certainly wouldn't label myself 'psychic', but have had my fair share of expereinces. What i don't do is then assume the knowledge is more important than anything else. .

the only ethical requirement that would have been met is their own personal one. Which isn't enough, when we're speaking of treating others, imo. I've been highlighting even within spirituality ethics require permission. within psychic healing also is no different.

Thaak wrote:
All of the experiences I’ve had where I asked a higher self or knew someone needed help, was with people I already knew how they felt about Reiki and already had physical permission to do what I could when I got those intuitive urges.

You've hit on something important. It's not relevant to our chat anymore (reading the above quote), but is really the crux of the issue in general.

The 'Higher self'. The higher self, is NOT the governing self. Whether it should be or not is immaterial. The word 'higher' alludes to it's ideals, not it's authority, at least in this existence. The fact is, on this physical existence on Earth, there are also more aspects to a human. Each one should be respected equally.

When one is on Earth, we should play by Earths rules. When one is a member of society, we should play by societies rules. And not dismiss, relegate, or circumvent them. .

Take care
Wayne

Milarepa wrote:
The 'Higher self'. The higher self, is NOT the governing self. Whether it should be or not is immaterial. The word 'higher' alludes to it's ideals, not it's authority, at least in this existence. The fact is, on this physical existence on Earth, there are also more aspects to a human. Each one should be respected equally.

Not sure I agree with you at all here. The discussion about what is the higher self and all that is a pretty broad one, and one in which most of us only have theories that we've read about or intuited on our own. Every other psychic or channel has a slightly different definition and what the import is.

But my belief system (which doesn't mean anyone elses is right or wrong here) says that the Higher Self decides what life you are put into when you are incarnated. That is the governor in my mind.

Be that as it may, lets explore something here.

What is intuition? I'm not 100% sure what it is, but I do know that you get little messages of some form or another, from some unseen angle, that gives you a direction or nudge. The more you pay attention to your intuition, the stronger and more clear it becomes. Kinda like lifting weights. The more you do it, the stronger you get. The act of waiting to ask physical permission from someone, for at least some practitioners, means that they don't fully trust their intuition. As such, if you don't fully trust it, it won't get stronger and may even get weaker.

That doesn't mean that every single time you get a nudge that you jump to and start Reiki-ing someone.

I guess much of my thought process comes from the spiritual path that I'm on, and doesn't have a ton to do specifically with Reiki or how I apply it in the real world.

But these are tenents that I believe should make up the crux of spiritual or faith healing ethics.

Impeccability and Integrity. If you have an agenda when healing someone, then you aren't being very impeccable with your intent. Without impeccable intent, and the practice of every moment of every day of impeccability, then selfishness can cloud your intuition. You can start receiving "nudges" that are not really intuition, but manifestation of your personal desires.

In the particular shamanic path that I'm on right now, we are taught that just because you can do something, even if it might be very helpful in the moment, does not mean that you should do something. That as you gain personal power and the ability to affect change around you on some pretty impressive scales, you then are burdened with the responsibility of making mistakes. You must be very discerning on when you take action, and when you choose to remain idle.

This can take the form of seeming to have a lack of compassion, but that is a whole different dialogue.

Essentially, what I'm trying to say is, that you can have a beautiful and impeccable set of spiritual ethics that doesn't necessarily follow the ethics that the consensual reality medical field requires.

Essentially, what I'm trying to say is, that until the paradigm of the consensual reality medical field changes to accept intuition and intent as valid diagnostic and curative techniques, then we won't see Reiki fully accepted into hospitals.

Rather than cater to an old paradigm, one that I feel is broken anyways, I think we should seek to change the paradigm. Then we can look at ethics more closely.

As always, however, the golden rule, "do unto others as you would have them do unto you," applies.

As for the animals... I suppose they could have just been curious and watching, but my intuition told me they had tapped in. Could my interpretation of my intuition have been wrong? I suppose so. But I had no personal agenda or attachment to what response the animals would have to the session, that I don't believe that lack of impeccable intent would have skewed my interpretation of my intuition as to what was happening with the animals.

When one is on Earth, we should play by Earths rules. When one is a member of society, we should play by societies rules. And not dismiss, relegate, or circumvent them. .

This is an interesting quote. Can you define for me what Earth's rules are? Or are you referring to consensual reality's rules?

The particular spiritual path that I'm on defines being a medicine person as "of the world, but not in the world." So technically I'm not really living in our Society. I have to interact with it, sure. Impeccable intent and integrity would imply that I follow the rules set forth, because the rules usually follow what Impeccability and integrity would ask me to do anyways.

As for ethics? Impeccability and integrity would say to me, that would not force my views on someone else, and if I knew expressly that someone did not want Reiki, then I would not engage in a Reiki session for that person. In asking someone's higher self, I have actually gotten a no, and this was from someone that had come to me physically for a healing session. That was a bit of a shock. I got express physical permission from the person, but when I asked their higher self, they said no. So I changed my intent a bit. I asked for the person's highest good of course, but then I also set my intent to help rebalance the obvious imbalance between their physical self and their higher self. I facilitated a Reiki session for the situation, rather than for the person. There was apparently something that person needed to go through with their infirmity that they would not have gone through if I'd facilitated a healing session for that particular ailment. Their higher self was perfectly ok with me facilitating a session to help ease that person into balance with their lesson.

So how do you deal with real world ethics in a situation like that? I've heard people who were turned away by practitioners who have said, "your higher self won't let me heal you." That was more damaging to the person than the ailment they had that brought them to the healer in the first place.

That's why I'm saying, until the paradigm shifts, we can't really apply medical ethics to Reiki. That doesn't mean I'm saying you should ignore common sense and general ethics in general. Not at all. But what I am saying, is that you can't apply a system of ethics to a system of healing that does not fit in the nice neat little box that the system of ethics is designed around.

Thaak wrote:

Milarepa wrote:
The 'Higher self'. The higher self, is NOT the governing self. Whether it should be or not is immaterial. The word 'higher' alludes to it's ideals, not it's authority, at least in this existence. The fact is, on this physical existence on Earth, there are also more aspects to a human. Each one should be respected equally.

Not sure I agree with you at all here. The discussion about what is the higher self and all that is a pretty broad one, and one in which most of us only have theories that we've read about or intuited on our own. Every other psychic or channel has a slightly different definition and what the import is.

I've just lost my reply to this, hehe.

Thaak wrote:
But my belief system (which doesn't mean anyone elses is right or wrong here) says that the Higher Self decides what life you are put into when you are incarnated. That is the governor in my mind.

Ok, i can go along with that for a sec. so, the higher self decides what life. If it''s a hunam life, presumably it's to fully experience humanity, in all it's varied horror & glory? So why would it want to interfere then? The higher self must know that what it wants is quite often not what an everyday human wants. So, to interfere doesn't allow one to have the freedom to fully experience humanity.

Once we are here on this physical earth, we are experiencing a different kind of reality. This reality is important to us, else we wouldn't have been sent here? so, why would the higher self really want it's ways to override the eveyday human self, since it's the everyday human expereince that must have been wanted, in the first place?

Thaak wrote:
In the particular shamanic path that I'm on right now, we are taught that just because you can do something, even if it might be very helpful in the moment, does not mean that you should do something. That as you gain personal power and the ability to affect change around you on some pretty impressive scales, you then are burdened with the responsibility of making mistakes. You must be very discerning on when you take action, and when you choose to remain idle.

This can take the form of seeming to have a lack of compassion, but that is a whole different dialogue.

Essentially, what I'm trying to say is, that you can have a beautiful and impeccable set of spiritual ethics that doesn't necessarily follow the ethics that the consensual reality medical field requires.

I became involved with traditional Shamanism (not the 'i went for a 2 week holiday' type Shaman Elder) before i bceame invovled with Reiki. SO can appreciate how important impeccibility is, .

Yes, you may be able to have a beautiful set of spiritual ethics that doesn't follow the medical field. However, one can easily have a beatiful set of spiruitual ethics that follows most other spiritual internvention ethics, and still follow medical ethics, as they are basically the same thing, for the purpose of this chat. Like i've pointed out, there's no conflict in abiding by spiritual intervention ethics, medical ethics, and societies ethics. Know why? Cause they all say the same thing in this subject.

Thaak wrote:

When one is on Earth, we should play by Earths rules. When one is a member of society, we should play by societies rules. And not dismiss, relegate, or circumvent them. .

This is an interesting quote. Can you define for me what Earth's rules are? Or are you referring to consensual reality's rules?

hehe. no, i'm not talking about consensual reality, good try though, . As i like to point out, quantum physics shows that reality is subjective. Earths rules was a collective term i was using to describe the ethics, morals & rules that you would expect to find in most societies worldwide.

Thaak wrote:
The particular spiritual path that I'm on defines being a medicine person as "of the world, but not in the world." So technically I'm not really living in our Society. I have to interact with it, sure. Impeccable intent and integrity would imply that I follow the rules set forth, because the rules usually follow what Impeccability and integrity would ask me to do anyways.

As for ethics? Impeccability and integrity would say to me, that would not force my views on someone else, and if I knew expressly that someone did not want Reiki, then I would not engage in a Reiki session for that person. In asking someone's higher self, I have actually gotten a no, and this was from someone that had come to me physically for a healing session. That was a bit of a shock. I got express physical permission from the person, but when I asked their higher self, they said no. So I changed my intent a bit. I asked for the person's highest good of course, but then I also set my intent to help rebalance the obvious imbalance between their physical self and their higher self. I facilitated a Reiki session for the situation, rather than for the person. There was apparently something that person needed to go through with their infirmity that they would not have gone through if I'd facilitated a healing session for that particular ailment. Their higher self was perfectly ok with me facilitating a session to help ease that person into balance with their lesson.

Well, by the very definition of what a Shaman does, they don't only walk in this world. That doesn't mean we aren't living in it 'technically', imo. Cause obviously we are. Unless you're journeying, etc, you're fully here now. And anyhow, being a member of this forum, of your Reiki school, of shamanism, shows you're a member of society, .

A society is a group of humans or other organisms of a single species that is delineated by the bounds of cultural identity, social solidarity, functional interdependence, or eusociality. Human societies are characterized by patterns of relationships between individuals that share a distinctive culture or institutions.

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Society

Anyhow, i feel kinda silly pointing out this next obvious bit, hehe. I thought i was being clear in my points earlier.

I'm glad you shared your experience of the higher self above. Does your expereince not show you that the higher self doesn't want the same thing as our everyday self?

Whilst i'm in this human existence, what my everyday self must be as important as what my higher self wants, else what was the point of my higher self choosing to have the human experience? There only is one obvious answer, .

Thaak wrote:
So how do you deal with real world ethics in a situation like that? I've heard people who were turned away by practitioners who have said, "your higher self won't let me heal you." That was more damaging to the person than the ailment they had that brought them to the healer in the first place.

I was told never to answer a question with another question, so i wrote this stupid sentence first, hehe. Ok. I know yo uguys in US gotta be careful with this, . Say, you were treating someone, and you intuitively firmly believed they had another unknown illness. Would you just go out and tell them? Or would you mayeb use your intelligence, and skillfully borach the subject another way?

There's your answer, .

Thaak wrote:
That's why I'm saying, until the paradigm shifts, we can't really apply medical ethics to Reiki. That doesn't mean I'm saying you should ignore common sense and general ethics in general. Not at all. But what I am saying, is that you can't apply a system of ethics to a system of healing that does not fit in the nice neat little box that the system of ethics is designed around.

With respect Andy, 'you' can't apply medical ethics to Reiki. Many others practitioners do with no problems. So, it is obvious, one can apply medical ethics, societies ethics, and ethics on spiritual intervention, quite easily together. Again, for the purposes of this subject, they all say the same thing. Don't take my word for it, Goolge is God with this one, .

Take care
Wayne

That still didn't answer my Q.
You saying that by using symbols we 'change' our personal energy to reiki?
If we did a blind test on you, can you tell QT or personal energy from Reiki?
not a challenge, just curious..

It's widely believed there is an endless supply of Reiki. Something i'm 'studying' atm, is that we might actually not. I've reasons for saying this, but won't elaborate. At least, not just yet. Although, things i can say are...

1) Quite a few RMT's have had strokes or heart attacks.

2) It has been, and still is by some, protocal to only initiate a very small number at level 3

That'll be a very interesting study!!

3) When we think about it, Reiki is our divine spark. And we are confering on another a spiritual empowerment. What is causing this spiritual empowerment? My divine spark. Although it is divine, it is my divine spark. My spirit. It might not be as umlimited as some would make us beleive.

I really want to know what you exactly mean by 'divine spark'?
Is it a thought, a faith, a state of mind , an emotion?

Then, we have the folks who don't feel like studying Reiki or researching, telling all it's not needed. Hehe, how do they know what is & isn't needed, unless they do the studying themselves. It's daft dismissing information before you even coem across it, . They are of course entitled to their beliefs, though shouldn't try to invalidate the ones who seek to understand more.

....and there are people like me, who find out even lineage that is supposed to be strictly 'usui' can be so different from other 'usui-s'!!
And constantly hear facts that are opposite, contradicting beliefs, etc... and wonder periodically 'I don't need to get to the bottom of the truth, let me just stop seeking and start enjoying what I already have'..

It's my body that does the healing.

I don't think it's you or your body that's healing. We don't heal. We are the vessel.

Besides, we manipulate Reiki everytime we do it...

1: to treat or operate with or as if with the hands or by mechanical means especially in a skillful manner
2 a: to manage or utilize skillfully b: to control or play upon by artful, unfair, or insidious means especially to one's own advantage

Source: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/manipulate[/quote]

That's an illusion.

Does being sent Reiki wihtout permission, or, the people have no concept of Reiki, actually help them? Or, does it help our conscious just that little bit more.

I think it's just a matter of difference in the belief systems.

Exactly. I see no reason why someone can't just ask another 'do you want Reiki'. Or, lay their hands on folks spontaneously in the street. .

As I said earlier, asking would be my first choice.

I have two interesting experiences with animals:

I loved your stories!
I have a cat and a hamster at home. The cat will look at me and then start fidgeting if I reiki-ed her.
The hamster will sit still and take it.

Second:

I’d like to add, that I attuned the mouse that day.

OMG,
was the mouse a common wild, stray mouse or a domesticated one?
I am not surprised but I find it super fascinating. The story's obviously means something! It's not an ordinary day when a mouse starts to interact with you like that!! Cool.
Are you always this comfortable with animals?

Five ***** stars and A+ to you for being so gentle with the mouse!
I can understand when you say you look at animals eyes and 'feel' something inside.
I will not forget connecting like that with a stray raccoon.

So in short, I think we can get implied consent quite easily in certain circumstances.

I believe that.

IF reiki is spiritual and intelligent (and BTW, not everyone agrees on both of those points) and KNOWS what it must do, then who are WE to think that we should channel it? Why would it have to work through US?? If it really is as you've said, then wouldn't it be able to go to where it's needed, regardless of whether WE are doing anything or not?

Thank you for agreeing!
I have the same question. I call it spiritual because of the way it feels when I receive or facilitate Reiki. I have experienced other kinds of energy work but this stands out.
On the flip side, If somebody did a blind test on me, I am not sure how I would feel.

Once and for all which is never, will we be able to agree on reiki properties EVER!
When we can't agree among ourselves, how are we going to get the medical community to agree with us??

What would you call it?

Hmmm, what was that saying about the road to Hell being paved with good intentions?

These are all good for arguing...
Not all quotations and idioms and famous phrases will fit everywhere.

If the patient has the capacity to either consent or refuse, then the patient's choice is to be honored.

Again, WE do not have any justification to be less ethical than medical professionals.

.....but who the !@#$%^&* would WE think we were if WE tried to sneak past his choice?

Count me in!

thehungrycaterpillar wrote:That still didn't answer my Q.
You saying that by using symbols we 'change' our personal energy to reiki?

No, . I'm saying that because of the symbols, and the spiritual empowerment that comes with them, we're able to access our divine spark. Different from our personal energy, but possibly not inexhaustible either.

thehungrycaterpillar wrote:
If we did a blind test on you, can you tell QT or personal energy from Reiki?
not a challenge, just curious..

Not sure i've felt personal energy per se. It's easy to differentiate between QT and Reiki, imo. And also, things like Sekhem, ime. Others folks are much, much more sensitive than i've even experienced. You'd be surprised what someone can tell you about yourself, by looking energetically on what you write on the internet. I know, they done it for me, hehe.

thehungrycaterpillar wrote:

3) When we think about it, Reiki is our divine spark. And we are confering on another a spiritual empowerment. What is causing this spiritual empowerment? My divine spark. Although it is divine, it is my divine spark. My spirit. It might not be as umlimited as some would make us beleive.

I really want to know what you exactly mean by 'divine spark'?
Is it a thought, a faith, a state of mind , an emotion?

Maybe it's all of those, and more, . Within spirituality it's said there's a small part of the creator in all of us. H P Blavatksy, HH Dalai Lama, Sufism, Gnostic Chiristianity, Kabbalah, even science! Quantum Physics, all these say that their is within us all, a divine spark. Quantum Physics calls it Zero point/point of creation. This zero point is where there is no-thing in existence. And in this no-thing, it's where all things are possible. This is theoretically the universe came from, it's a creative force of immesurable possibility. With a tiny speck within all of us, .

thehungrycaterpillar wrote:
And constantly hear facts that are opposite, contradicting beliefs, etc... and wonder periodically 'I don't need to get to the bottom of the truth, let me just stop seeking and start enjoying what I already have'..

Yeah, it can be very frustrating, and daunting at times. So it's natural some don't care for it. Then again, some don't care for bird-watchers particularly, though they still gotta right to di it, hehe.

All one can do is listen to everything all have to say, do a little research if they care. Or, if they don't, then be content with what they have. All ways are valid, .

thehungrycaterpillar wrote:

It's my body that does the healing.

I don't think it's you or your body that's healing. We don't heal. We are the vessel.

When i'm self-treating, it's my own body that does the healing for me, . It's long been known to be the only true healer.

If i started a Reiki treatment for you, my own divine spark sets in motion an occurence, a phenomenon, that is called Reiki. With our limited understanding, this is commonly expereinced as 'energy'. The summation of this whole episode, is your body would begin to heal itself. Sometimes obviously, other times, not so obvious. It's your body doing the healing though.

thehungrycaterpillar wrote:

Besides, we manipulate Reiki everytime we do it...

1: to treat or operate with or as if with the hands or by mechanical means especially in a skillful manner
2 a: to manage or utilize skillfully b: to control or play upon by artful, unfair, or insidious means especially to one's own advantage

Source: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/manipulate

That's an illusion.

What is? That we don't use our hands in a skillfull manner? Or to one's own advantage? Everytime one iniates another another, a certain skill is used. Or, when one performs byosen, or Reiji ho, it's to our advantage, or anothers.

Everytime i expereince Reiki personally, i hope it's to my advantage, hehe. Else why do it? .

thehungrycaterpillar wrote:

Does being sent Reiki wihtout permission, or, the people have no concept of Reiki, actually help them? Or, does it help our conscious just that little bit more.

I think it's just a matter of difference in the belief systems.

What one beleives about permission, sadly, doesn't change the reality for the rest of the world, it only dictates the reality for the practictioner beleiving it.

Using myself as an example. Before i came to Reiki, i'd a pretty bad problem with addiction. It's long been known, that someone with this illness must first want to help themselves. Failure rate otherwise is high. If, someone decided to 'consult' with some other aspect of me, like a 'higher self', and went ahead and began absent healing, many things could have ben different...

For example, i wouldn't know what was helping me, so, i would never have knowingly experienced Reiki, and probably wouldn't be here now talking about Reiki with you.

Since my everyday self didn't seek the help, i wouldn't have the slightest inclination to stop, non-commital on a conscious level, greatly increases prolonged use.

Often, with healing, a person has to want to get better, before they ever have any chance of doing so. So, what i done was go learn Reiki 1, and by doing something possitive, i.e spending my next amount of cash on something not drugs, it was a major step. Then, when i learned Reiki 1, within 3 weeks my use had stopped. I knew why it had stoped, and i was real proud, at last, i'd done somthing good. And, i felt God, and knew exactly why, . This is just one personal example of hwy it's so important for a person to be fully involved in their own healing. It's exactly why the medical profession have one of their basic ethics centering around it. And they do know about healing.

This whole subject is more properly broached by adressing what factors are best for a person to expereince healing. In this issue, the clients wellbeing is of parmaount importance, and not whatever a practitioner expereinces or believes spiritually. As that is very subjective.

Take care
Wayne

Wow - I missed a really great debate!!

I did want to address the comment about a number of RMTs suffering strokes or heart attacks. This is also true of many great spiritual teachers and yogis. My husband was telling me that our arteries actually need a certain amount of consistent blood pressure in order to maintain proper functioning, and the highly relaxed states associated with certain spiritual practices may be causing changes in arterial pressure that contribute to brain bleeds. (Not sure how that might affect heart functioning, since we don't necessarily know what type of heart disease these practitioners experienced.) Just some food for thought.

These are always very interesting and passionate discussions. So I am going to add my two cents here... The question becomes, why not ask permission? If the individual is physically capable of providing a response, why wouldn't you ask? We empower ourselves and others when we openly discuss and offer Reiki. I have made a conscious effort to not let any fears or rejection or judgement stop me from mentioning or offering Reiki. Sometimes, its a simple "You know, I could give you some Reiki for that?" Then when they ask what that is, I tell them in simple terms and say "It's worth a try, you might feel better" Typically, most people, including skeptics, will agree. If they say no, I simply tell them to let me know if they change their mind. I don't take it personally. I have changed many minds about healing simply by offering and allowing them to experience it. I think it is important to examine why we wouldn't ask permission. What is it within ourselves that is causing us to hold back? If someone (who is now a friend) hadn't walked into a party and announced that she had just taken her Reiki 1, I may not have found my way.

2nd point - Absolutely, you can tell the difference between Reiki and other forms of energy. I can tell the difference both when receiving and giving.

3rd point (animals) - In my experience, some love it and some hate it, including amongst my own dogs. I have one who is all over me whenever I'm using Reiki, one who will come and ask (don't ask me how I know, I just do), and one who really doesn't care for it. I've been at friends houses and had their dog come and lay next me and the Reiki just activates. But I usually don't give Reiki to animals unless I feel compelled for some reason.

I know that there were many other things discussed, but will leave it at that for now.

Love and light, Deb

Deb,

I agree with your points.

BTW, on a previous message board, I asked whether anyone would do distant attunements without the recipients' permission. On that board, even the people who'd insisted that distant treatments without permission were okay didn't endorse distant attunements without permission. But they didn't articulate a principled distinction between the two situations. But then someone said that in a particular locality, there was a group that covertly "blitzed" strangers with quick proximal attunements. It sounded quite creepy to me.

Bruce

Bruce wrote:... But then someone said that in a particular locality, there was a group that covertly "blitzed" strangers with quick proximal attunements. It sounded quite creepy to me.

hi Bruce,

I seem to recall something similar was discussed on the old Reiki-4-all forum (or perhaps on its UK countertpart?)

There are some Reiki people in Canada (and elsewhere?) who believe it is their right (perhaps even their duty?) to surreptitiously initiate as many people as they possibly can.

Apparently they believe it will hasten the 'ascension' of the Human Race




.
.

seems more like 'decension'. Forcing ones spirituality on another without them asking first, is a no-no. Can't see how disregarding basic societal etquiette will evolve anyone, except certain individuals own selfishness.

Rlei_ki wrote:

Bruce wrote:... But then someone said that in a particular locality, there was a group that covertly "blitzed" strangers with quick proximal attunements. It sounded quite creepy to me.

hi Bruce,

I seem to recall something similar was discussed on the old Reiki-4-all forum (or perhaps on its UK countertpart?)

There are some Reiki people in Canada (and elsewhere?) who believe it is their right (perhaps even their duty?) to surreptitiously initiate as many people as they possibly can.

Apparently they believe it will hasten the 'ascension' of the Human Race




.
.

Hi James,

I`m in Canada. I`ve seen Reiki twisted in many ways. Yet I haven`t run into the "Lets attune the masses without their knowledge gang"...Could one of you folks in the know, drop me a line, regarding the location of said group... I would like to go for a visit and a chat...Irresponsible and disgusting comes to mind....I would like to see up close and personal what the hell they think they are doing.

RJ

Whoop! Go, go Jim!

I'm all for respecting an individuals own personal spirituality, but when they throw that onto others, without permission, i'm totally with you're comments.

I expect, like me, you regard every act within Reiki as a spiritual act? We realise then, we can't morally & ethically begin a spiritual process unless we've been asked.

Take care
Wayne

Reikijim wrote:
I`m in Canada. I`ve seen Reiki twisted in many ways. Yet I haven`t run into the "Lets attune the masses without their knowledge gang"...Could one of you folks in the know, drop me a line, regarding the location of said group... I would like to go for a visit and a chat...Irresponsible and disgusting comes to mind....I would like to see up close and personal what the hell they think they are doing.

can't quite recall where exactly they were based - as I mentioned, I think it was in a discussion on Reiki-4-all (the now defunct)

Wayne, and anyone else - help me out here?
- I'm not sure if maybe Rob Spiller brought up the issue?


Reiki-4-all seems such a loonnggg time ago

______________________
[EDIT] just went to look at the web archives for the Reiki-4-all forum and got the following message:

"We're sorry, access to [.........]reiki4all has been blocked by the site owner"

Wonder why Remy's done this?

Rlei_ki wrote:
Wayne, and anyone else - help me out here?
- I'm not sure if maybe Rob Spiller brought up the issue?

Aha! Makes a bleeding change from you endlessly helping me out! I can't remember off-hand myself, but will go chat with Rob on facebook.

Rlei_ki wrote:
______________________
[EDIT] just went to look at the web archives for the Reiki-4-all forum and got the following message:

"We're sorry, access to [.........]reiki4all has been blocked by the site owner"

Wonder why Remy's done this?

Dunno, will ask Rob does he know. Maybe folks have been taking the information off there (shrug), then again, who has the intellectual rights to forum info?

Take care
Wayne

Hi Folks,

I was very lucky in Ontario, regarding the Reiki folks I was initially involved with. My Komyo teacher taught good things, no sensationalism, no new age spirituality flavors. The Usui/Tibetan guys were ok too....to a point.

My saving grace was meeting some of you folks present here now. James, Wayne and Rob to name a few...You guys made me aware, and led me to information that gave me a better understanding of the intentions and history of Usui and Reiki.

Thank goodness, as I may well have had to invent my own style just to clear out some of the confusion in my learning path...I would have called it "Dog`s Breakfest Reiki" in honor of all the folks who do not seem to feel that Usui`s teachings were enough..

So anyways, I land in a small city in western Canada, a little place called Grande Prairie, Alberta and get invited to a Reiki share by a local Usui/Komyo teacher.

So I`m laying on the table and there are people in the room who have never been attuned and the teacher is telling them to put their hands on me and let there energies flow....needless to say, the party broke up at that point, as I stopped it and asked her to step outside with me for a moment.

In a polite way I informed her as to what I was comfortable with, we returned to the treatment room. A couple of her level two students, proceeded to work with me....Then the dialogue started....apparently I was my-exwife`s slave in another life, I once had an affair with Isis( kinda funny I thought, considering Isis was a Goddess and not mortal)I was a Roman General at that time, and I have the ability to call dead spirits from anywhere etc,etc,...or so I was told...wow I thought, that`s considerable value for your money...

Okay so...I`ve had my own intuitive/psychic moments...I think it`s common...I`m not bashing anyone`s beliefs or spiritual nature..But in my estimation the first objective, and really the only objective, is the clients well being, and state of mind, during treatment.
There was nothing relaxing or healing about the experience...It was a psychic side show, with no mouth edit button...I can just imagine what a person with little to no experience would have felt after an encounter with these people.

Hence my interest in this "mass attunement" thing you guys have spoke of. It seems there are sections of Canada where Reiki bares little resemblance to Reiki...I have a problem with that

Although, I used to be about not liking regulatory boards...It appears they may be the only way for this wonderful practice to become more mainstream in the future..

Looks like I`ll be joining the CRA afterall.

RJ

Sorry Wayne, kinda off topic in regard to the thread heading...move it if you must for the sake on continuity

Reikijim wrote:Hi Folks,

I was very lucky in Ontario, regarding the Reiki folks I was initially involved with. My Komyo teacher taught good things, no sensationalism, no new age spirituality flavors.

I have to say mate, your post-Komyo training, quite often i can almost 'taste' the peace you've expereinced, from reading your posts.

Reikijim wrote:
My saving grace was meeting some of you folks present here now. James, Wayne and Rob to name a few...You guys made me aware, and led me to information that gave me a better understanding of the intentions and history of Usui and Reiki.

Oh, it's reciprocal bro! You've been a dear freind to me, in public, and private, .

Reikijim wrote:
Thank goodness, as I may well have had to invent my own style just to clear out some of the confusion in my learning path...I would have called it "Dog`s Breakfest Reiki" in honor of all the folks who do not seem to feel that Usui`s teachings were enough..

Hey, if you're teaching it, i'm your first student! lol.

Reikijim wrote:
In a polite way I informed her as to what I was comfortable with, we returned to the treatment room. A couple of her level two students, proceeded to work with me....Then the dialogue started....apparently I was my-exwife`s slave in another life, I once had an affair with Isis( kinda funny I thought, considering Isis was a Goddess and not mortal)I was a Roman General at that time, and I have the ability to call dead spirits from anywhere etc,etc,...or so I was told...wow I thought, that`s considerable value for your money...

Hehe, sorry i'm laughing, . This'd prob be un-nerving to some, i bet you thought 'WTF!?' though!

Reikijim wrote:
Okay so...I`ve had my own intuitive/psychic moments...I think it`s common...I`m not bashing anyone`s beliefs or spiritual nature..But in my estimation the first objective, and really the only objective, is the clients well being, and state of mind, during treatment.

My own Usui Shiki Ryoho teacher (a dear freind, and great example of Reiki), is very, very intuitive. She's got the skill though to be gentle with what's revealed, and know what the client needs. I agree with you, with the example you expereinced.

Reikijim wrote:
Hence my interest in this "mass attunement" thing you guys have spoke of. It seems there are sections of Canada where Reiki bares little resemblance to Reiki...I have a problem with that

not just Canada Bro!

Reikijim wrote:
Although, I used to be about not liking regulatory boards...It appears they may be the only way for this wonderful practice to become more mainstream in the future..

Looks like I`ll be joining the CRA afterall.

Jim, i felt the same as you. The thought of Reiki being trademarked by Phyliss initially i detested it. Yet, the more i found out what i was teaching wasn't Usui Shiki Ryoho, and, the initiation procedure had changed so much, i began to wish Phyliss had been successful.

It's more about keeping the integrity of a system. To me, this is why Jikiden, for instance, keeps things within Jikiden. I can't fault them for that. It's the survival, and purity of the teachings, so nothing gets lost.

Reikijim wrote:
Sorry Wayne, kinda off topic in regard to the thread heading...move it if you must for the sake on continuity

The moderator can, if he decides, .

Take care
Wayne

Hello Wayne,

Reikijim wrote:
In a polite way I informed her as to what I was comfortable with, we returned to the treatment room. A couple of her level two students, proceeded to work with me....Then the dialogue started....apparently I was my-exwife`s slave in another life, I once had an affair with Isis( kinda funny I thought, considering Isis was a Goddess and not mortal)I was a Roman General at that time, and I have the ability to call dead spirits from anywhere etc,etc,...or so I was told...wow I thought, that`s considerable value for your money...

Wayne wrote:Hehe, sorry i'm laughing, . This'd prob be un-nerving to some, i bet you thought 'WTF!?' though!

Yeah man...I was hoping some would smile and chuckle in regard to the way that I`ve chosen to explain it.

At the time I was disappointed. I was hoping for a good relaxing experience with like minded individuals. Oh well...

I need to clarify something in case some feel I may be a little critical in my line of thinking here. As you know Wayne, I`m a Komyo master and an Usui master/teacher...Quite frankly...I feel I`m a master of nothing...merely a perpetual student...Usui was the master..I`m forever his student...

At one point,shortly after my level 2 Usui attunement the amount of psychic info that was available to me made me uncomfortable and unable to function in the environment that paid my bills for the most part. So....I shut it down...I still have the intuitive insight to treat people in Reiki...that`s all I need...

I`m not trained in past life regression therapies, therefore I do not go there with Reiki clients...That`s not to say that I don`t get input, and I deeply respect those who have these abilities naturally.

As you said, in reference to your teacher...there is a time, a place and a way to share such information that may well help one in self realization and healing.

Nice to be chatting with you again Wayne,


RJ

Reikijim wrote:

Usui was the master..I`m forever his student...

Sadly, that level of affection, and respect, isn't (ahem) quite as widespread as it should be with some, .

Reikijim wrote:
Nice to be chatting with you again Wayne,

and you too buddy!

Take care
Wayne

If people send Reiki energy without
permission the person its sent to
does not necessarily receive it unless
the unsuspecting recipient accepts it.

I honestly don't know if that's true, .

I know a lot of people say it, but really, a person can only sy that if they are able to follow Reiki from themselves to the recipient.

We have to take into account what a practitioner assumes may be happening, and what really is.

then of course, personally, if one does say they can follow Reiki, i'd suggest Reiki doesn't 'travel' anywhere anyhow. there's no seperatedness. This is another topic though! hehe.

Take care
Wayne

Wayne, If we squabble amongst ourselves
about who's right /wrong, who's Reiki is
better than another persons Reiki , then
we are not practicing the 5 principles.ULE
has no watchdogs. It does its energy work
without our help. It worked before we were
born and it works after our death. We have
learned as Usui did on the Mountain to awaken
the energy within us. When we have done that
then we can facilitate ULE using the Reiki
system. I see Reiki as one, we do not have a
choice to use it or not use it. Reiki is not
a religion/spiritual, imo it is the air that
we breathe. Some of us choose to use it to
create balance, harmony & growth within our
selves, it does no harm, we have nothing to
fear but fear itself.

chi_solas wrote:Wayne, If we squabble amongst ourselves
about who's right /wrong, who's Reiki is
better than another persons Reiki , then
we are not practicing the 5 principles.

I can't see any 'squabble'. And i can't see anyone claiming their opinion is better than anothers.

All that's being asked is for someone/anyone to step up to the mark, and quantify the dogmatic rhetoric of such claims, .

It's to be encouraged to search for the truth. If that's challenges anyone's current beliefs, then provided no-one is abusive, too bad, .

take care
Wayne