Reiki Treatment & the Need for Permission...

I'd be the opposite, fwiw. .

If 'some' part of me did somehow 'communicate' to a person via their meditation that i wanted help or comfort, that's got nothing to do with Reiki, per se. I'd have posibly only said i wanted help or comfort.

If we change that to 'Reiki', i'd still not. If i was standing in a queue in a shop, and via the same extra-sensory perception, had the same dialogue with someone else in the queue, i wouldn't go up to that person and lay my hands on them and start Reiki. Doing it by stealth via absent/distance healing hardly makes it right.

Every act in Reiki is a spiritual act, heck it's our spark of the divine instigating it. Spiritually we've no mandate to enter into a spiritual act with another without their express, conscious permission. This is what happens within spirituality, in general.

Would one initiate a person into Reiki, cause their 'higher self' 'said' it's ok? I doubt it. Likewise, one wouldn't simply go start an in-person treatment on someone in the street, without conscious permission. Consistency should be wanted, .

There's another issue, well several, hehe. Not so much here in the UK perhaps, but maybe over in USA. If a person finds out they were 'treated' with something such as Reiki, and didn't want it, there could be serious trouble. Let's say a religious person, who abhors Reiki (as is an individuals right). The practitioner could find themselves facing a lawsuit (i'd like to see someone wining a court case using the 'higher self' excuse), and Reiki facing another embarrasing episode, as far as some public opinion, and medical opinion goes. Reiki is already 'looked-down' upon in some areas of healing in the UK, cause of the half-assed way it goes about things at times, .

The issue should not be what we, the practitioner feels comfortable with. At the end of the day, a practitioner would only enter into this, if the practitioners own spirituality beleived in the 'higher self' governing thing. Well, what a practitioner believes has got nothing to do with what anyone else believes. Within Reiki Ryoho, when we're providing the service of Reiki for another, it's what they genuinely want that is of paramount importance. Simply because a practitioner beleives anothers higher self has gave permission does not mean:-

A) That any form of permission was even gave.

B) That, even if it was, we can fly in the face of healing ethics since time immemorial, and not seek conscious consent.

C) Totally disregard any potential spiritual (or lack of) principles their conscious self might have.

D) Dismiss all earthly human rights every single person has, especially 'freedom of choice'.

All this because a practitioners own interpretation of their spirtuality, somehow was a universal truth that should apply to all?

Take care
Wayne

Milarepa wrote:I'd be the opposite, fwiw. .

If 'some' part of me did somehow 'communicate' to a person via their meditation that i wanted help or comfort, that's got nothing to do with Reiki, per se. I'd have posibly only said i wanted help or comfort.

If we change that to 'Reiki', i'd still not. If i was standing in a queue in a shop, and via the same extra-sensory perception, had the same dialogue with someone else in the queue, i wouldn't go up to that person and lay my hands on them and start Reiki. Doing it by stealth via absent/distance healing hardly makes it right.

Every act in Reiki is a spiritual act, heck it's our spark of the divine instigating it. Spiritually we've no mandate to enter into a spiritual act with another without their express, conscious permission. This is what happens within spirituality, in general.

Would one initiate a person into Reiki, cause their 'higher self' 'said' it's ok? I doubt it. Likewise, one wouldn't simply go start an in-person treatment on someone in the street, without conscious permission. Consistency should be wanted, .

There's another issue, well several, hehe. Not so much here in the UK perhaps, but maybe over in USA. If a person finds out they were 'treated' with something such as Reiki, and didn't want it, there could be serious trouble. Let's say a religious person, who abhors Reiki (as is an individuals right). The practitioner could find themselves facing a lawsuit (i'd like to see someone wining a court case using the 'higher self' excuse), and Reiki facing another embarrasing episode, as far as some public opinion, and medical opinion goes. Reiki is already 'looked-down' upon in some areas of healing in the UK, cause of the half-assed way it goes about things at times, .

The issue should not be what we, the practitioner feels comfortable with. At the end of the day, a practitioner would only enter into this, if the practitioners own spirituality beleived in the 'higher self' governing thing. Well, what a practitioner believes has got nothing to do with what anyone else believes. Within Reiki Ryoho, when we're providing the service of Reiki for another, it's what they genuinely want that is of paramount importance. Simply because a practitioner beleives anothers higher self has gave permission does not mean:-

A) That any form of permission was even gave.

B) That, even if it was, we can fly in the face of healing ethics since time immemorial, and not seek conscious consent.

C) Totally disregard any potential spiritual (or lack of) principles their conscious self might have.

D) Dismiss all earthly human rights every single person has, especially 'freedom of choice'.

All this because a practitioners own interpretation of their spirtuality, somehow was a universal truth that should apply to all?

Take care
Wayne

Good point Wayne, and this is definitely an ethical gray area.

However if their friend was in meditation at the time, and they were crying out for help. Chances are the permission was implicit in the act of the meditation and request for help. Even if it was all on a subconscious level.

Thaak wrote:

However if their friend was in meditation at the time, and they were crying out for help. Chances are the permission was implicit in the act of the meditation and request for help. Even if it was all on a subconscious level.

Yeah, i understand your point. Thing is, within spirituality, whom is right or wrong? No-one. My point being multiple-fold.

If one beleives within their own sprituality that the higher self governs all, does that mean they are more likely to 'recieve', or, think they are recieving permission, based on their own spirituality? Like a certain someone says on here, and quantum physics tells us.. 'Our thoughts shape our reality..'

Also, it has to be said, if one was really recieving a call for help, and if the call(s) were genuine all the time. How easy is it for most to distinguish between their ego, and what is really occuring spiritually? Sometimes easy, quite often not so. Hehe, i know some may say they know, but within spirituality, the more one thinks they are 'progressed', the less they may tend to be. Only when one feels they are getting nowhere, does one tend to be going anywhere, hehe.

Anyhow, you've highlighted an important aspect of it all Andy. Our sub-conscious. If our sub-conscious was asking for something, should it be done?

Quite often, within healing, a person needs to want to ne healed. In fact, it's an integral part of the whole process. If i can lay myself bare for a sec, hehe. Yuo know Andy, as do many of my friends from Reiki4All, how i came to know my Reiki. Via addiciton. If someone at that time had of absent treated me with Reiki, and, maybe things were fixed for a time, i doubt it would've been as big an impact as it was. Someone with addiction, needs to actually want to get help in the first place. And certainly, i wouldn't have maybe got involved with Reiki, since i wouldn't have known what had helped in the first place.

Just a few points there. So, like i pointed out, within spirituality, no-one is right or wrong really. Usually, hehe. So, in this subject, are we not ethically, morally & spiritually, obligated to err on the side of caution? Just incase? (rhetorical).

Take care
Wayne

Milarepa wrote:

Thaak wrote:

However if their friend was in meditation at the time, and they were crying out for help. Chances are the permission was implicit in the act of the meditation and request for help. Even if it was all on a subconscious level.

Yeah, i understand your point. Thing is, within spirituality, whom is right or wrong? No-one. My point being multiple-fold.

If one beleives within their own sprituality that the higher self governs all, does that mean they are more likely to 'recieve', or, think they are recieving permission, based on their own spirituality? Like a certain someone says on here, and quantum physics tells us.. 'Our thoughts shape our reality..'

Also, it has to be said, if one was really recieving a call for help, and if the call(s) were genuine all the time. How easy is it for most to distinguish between their ego, and what is really occuring spiritually? Sometimes easy, quite often not so. Hehe, i know some may say they know, but within spirituality, the more one thinks they are 'progressed', the less they may tend to be. Only when one feels they are getting nowhere, does one tend to be going anywhere, hehe.

Anyhow, you've highlighted an important aspect of it all Andy. Our sub-conscious. If our sub-conscious was asking for something, should it be done?

Quite often, within healing, a person needs to want to ne healed. In fact, it's an integral part of the whole process. If i can lay myself bare for a sec, hehe. Yuo know Andy, as do many of my friends from Reiki4All, how i came to know my Reiki. Via addiciton. If someone at that time had of absent treated me with Reiki, and, maybe things were fixed for a time, i doubt it would've been as big an impact as it was. Someone with addiction, needs to actually want to get help in the first place. And certainly, i wouldn't have maybe got involved with Reiki, since i wouldn't have known what had helped in the first place.

Just a few points there. So, like i pointed out, within spirituality, no-one is right or wrong really. Usually, hehe. So, in this subject, are we not ethically, morally & spiritually, obligated to err on the side of caution? Just incase? (rhetorical).

Take care
Wayne

Erring on the side of caution is always a good idea. However, for those who truly have psychic dreams and impressions, they know. I can tell you for a fact that most of my psychic impressions are based on intuition, and as oft as not, I get the interpretation of what I've seen wrong.

Therefore, I tend to get physical permission.

However, there have been a couple times when I heard the psychic cry from someone I was extremely close to. I immediately began the facilitation of a Reiki session. I know I had their permission, and I know they were crying for help, because later that night they called me and thanked me for the help that was sent. When the cry is that strong that you actually feel compelled (in that often the Reiki energy starts going before you consciously do or intend anything), I think you ethically can't resist.

Andy

Thaak wrote:

Milarepa wrote:

Thaak wrote:

However if their friend was in meditation at the time, and they were crying out for help. Chances are the permission was implicit in the act of the meditation and request for help. Even if it was all on a subconscious level.

Yeah, i understand your point. Thing is, within spirituality, whom is right or wrong? No-one. My point being multiple-fold.

If one beleives within their own sprituality that the higher self governs all, does that mean they are more likely to 'recieve', or, think they are recieving permission, based on their own spirituality? Like a certain someone says on here, and quantum physics tells us.. 'Our thoughts shape our reality..'

Also, it has to be said, if one was really recieving a call for help, and if the call(s) were genuine all the time. How easy is it for most to distinguish between their ego, and what is really occuring spiritually? Sometimes easy, quite often not so. Hehe, i know some may say they know, but within spirituality, the more one thinks they are 'progressed', the less they may tend to be. Only when one feels they are getting nowhere, does one tend to be going anywhere, hehe.

Anyhow, you've highlighted an important aspect of it all Andy. Our sub-conscious. If our sub-conscious was asking for something, should it be done?

Quite often, within healing, a person needs to want to ne healed. In fact, it's an integral part of the whole process. If i can lay myself bare for a sec, hehe. Yuo know Andy, as do many of my friends from Reiki4All, how i came to know my Reiki. Via addiciton. If someone at that time had of absent treated me with Reiki, and, maybe things were fixed for a time, i doubt it would've been as big an impact as it was. Someone with addiction, needs to actually want to get help in the first place. And certainly, i wouldn't have maybe got involved with Reiki, since i wouldn't have known what had helped in the first place.

Just a few points there. So, like i pointed out, within spirituality, no-one is right or wrong really. Usually, hehe. So, in this subject, are we not ethically, morally & spiritually, obligated to err on the side of caution? Just incase? (rhetorical).

Take care
Wayne

Erring on the side of caution is always a good idea. However, for those who truly have psychic dreams and impressions, they know. I can tell you for a fact that most of my psychic impressions are based on intuition, and as oft as not, I get the interpretation of what I've seen wrong.

Therefore, I tend to get physical permission.

However, there have been a couple times when I heard the psychic cry from someone I was extremely close to. I immediately began the facilitation of a Reiki session. I know I had their permission, and I know they were crying for help, because later that night they called me and thanked me for the help that was sent. When the cry is that strong that you actually feel compelled (in that often the Reiki energy starts going before you consciously do or intend anything), I think you ethically can't resist.

Andy

I do agree. During mediation a few nights ago, I wasn't quite looking for helping someone. Just to reflect on what I needed to know. It was all of the sudden I heard my friend cry.... while still in mediation.. and I found myself there beside my friend.

( Just to let you know.. I am learning about Reiki. I don't see myself as a master of a Reiki.. just a student. Looking into finding a teacher for me at the moment. )

All I knew, psychically, my friend was crying for help and wanted comfort. All I did was just put my hands on her shoulder.. like a friend would do in order to comfort another friend. And that my friend did wanted that comfort from me before proceeding in comforting my friend. It was just something that I just 'knew' and 'sensed' that my friend wanted that.

( Pardon me for me using the words 'my friend'. Just protecting the identity of my friend. )

I'm all open for instructions.

Thaak wrote:
Erring on the side of caution is always a good idea. However, for those who truly have psychic dreams and impressions, they know. I can tell you for a fact that most of my psychic impressions are based on intuition, and as oft as not, I get the interpretation of what I've seen wrong.

Even if you did know someone subconsciously asked for help. What is it exactly that makes their everyday, conscious opinions not needed?

If i could understand that, it'd go a long way in me being able to shift my amazement at this subject, .

With respect, simply because someone may have psychic abilities, and senses something, does not give them carte blanche to treat without conscious permission. Even psychics, well, professional ones, have ethics.

Thaak wrote:
Therefore, I tend to get physical permission.

How so? Does 'physical permission' entail, conscious, verbal, legal, permission?

Thaak wrote:
However, there have been a couple times when I heard the psychic cry from someone I was extremely close to. I immediately began the facilitation of a Reiki session. I know I had their permission, and I know they were crying for help, because later that night they called me and thanked me for the help that was sent. When the cry is that strong that you actually feel compelled (in that often the Reiki energy starts going before you consciously do or intend anything)

Sure, i can appreciate this. Of course, the luxury there, is that you know for sure the person's opinions of Reiki.

Would you be as quick to treat a person whom you knew wanted nothing to do with Reiki if asked, and even more, actually hates the idea of Reiki?

And if you would still go ahead and treat, on what authority do you feel you are correct to do so?

And thirdly, hehe, how does one know either way what their valid, earthly, feelings/beliefs (including religious) are, unless they are asked?

For instance, if a member of a religion says 'Reiki is evil', they have as much right to that belief, as one who feels they don't need to be asked in the first place.

Is it not obvious, when one looks at people, that a person's higher self, or sub-conscious, does not always hold dominion over a person. That their everyday self makes decisions in this world. There's more to a human than their higher self or sub-conscious. In any event, it's plain double standards, there's no point beating around the bush, ....

..If it's fine to treat someone on the basis their higher/sub-conscious says so, why not go in-person treat? In actual fact, why even advertise Reiki? We simply need to develop our intuition, and go zap whomever we decide is asking.

Thaak wrote:
I think you ethically can't resist.

Ethically can't! Bro, it's these kinda 'ethics', or lack of, that is part of the reason why we can't get Reiki into mainstream hospitals. At least on the scale that is needed. Are we really to blame the adminastrators of hospitals, whom refuse to let Reiki practitioners onto their wards professionally, because the Reiki folk might treat the patients without conscious permission? With the very idea making some patients anxious, nervous, when they're trying to convalece?

The actual lack of ethics with Reiki practiioners, is precisely the reason why many countries are having no choice, but to begin to regulate their own Reiki communities. UK & Australia immediately come to mind. Else, our credibility will be forever shot to pieces.


take care
Wayne

Milarepa wrote:..If it's fine to treat someone on the basis their higher/sub-conscious says so, why not go in-person treat? In actual fact, why even advertise Reiki? We simply need to develop our intuition, and go zap whomever we decide is asking.

The same line of "reasoning" can go further than that. If someone is at the hospital just to get x-rays on an injured arm, why not go ahead and anesthetize him and take out his spleen, if that's what his higher self or unconscious self was asking for? After all, the surgeon can always say "He REALLY gave permission for that, even though not verbally." Riiigghht. Such an explanation isn't going to convince the hospital's internal review board, or the jury.

And, again: We don't have any justification to be less ethical than professional medical practitioners.

Bruce

Out of curiosity.. was it wrong for me to give my friend the comfort that was needed? (Even though it was through mediation that I heard my friend crying... my friend and I are in different countries right now.)

Want to make sure that I didn't cross a line.

Giving someone comfort, is up to them really, .

As you can see, treating someone via Reiki without permission, is a divisive subject. You've came to a great forum (if i say so myself, hehe), with a wealth of diverse expereince, and all opinions are equally valid. By all means, listen to all the varied responses, though, in the end, trust in yourself, and within Reiki, do what you intuitively feel is correct, .

Take care
Wayne

Which I do agree. It is like giving blood transfusion to someone who refuses in taking it. We all learn something new everyday.

TWolfsong wrote: It is like giving blood transfusion to someone who refuses in taking it.

Yeah, at least they have the option to refuse, .

Milarepa wrote:
Even if you did know someone subconsciously asked for help. What is it exactly that makes their everyday, conscious opinions not needed?

If i could understand that, it'd go a long way in me being able to shift my amazement at this subject, .

Until you've had the kind of experience I (or others) have had, I don't think I can explain it to you. I don't mean to be ambiguous, but when you are a person who doesn't get "visions", and then one happens... you know its real. I just can't explain it any better than that.

With respect, simply because someone may have psychic abilities, and senses something, does not give them carte blanche to treat without conscious permission. Even psychics, well, professional ones, have ethics.

Agreed. There is a difference with taking carte blanche and doing something for someone that you know they would accept anyways.

Thaak wrote:
Therefore, I tend to get physical permission.

How so? Does 'physical permission' entail, conscious, verbal, legal, permission?

Yes.

Sure, i can appreciate this. Of course, the luxury there, is that you know for sure the person's opinions of Reiki.

Would you be as quick to treat a person whom you knew wanted nothing to do with Reiki if asked, and even more, actually hates the idea of Reiki?

And if you would still go ahead and treat, on what authority do you feel you are correct to do so?

And thirdly, hehe, how does one know either way what their valid, earthly, feelings/beliefs (including religious) are, unless they are asked?

For instance, if a member of a religion says 'Reiki is evil', they have as much right to that belief, as one who feels they don't need to be asked in the first place.

Is it not obvious, when one looks at people, that a person's higher self, or sub-conscious, does not always hold dominion over a person. That their everyday self makes decisions in this world. There's more to a human than their higher self or sub-conscious. In any event, it's plain double standards, there's no point beating around the bush, ....

..If it's fine to treat someone on the basis their higher/sub-conscious says so, why not go in-person treat? In actual fact, why even advertise Reiki? We simply need to develop our intuition, and go zap whomever we decide is asking.

I don't think I'd have a "vision" like I did with someone that I wasn't close enough to already know all this. In my case, I had already done hands-on Reiki for her, she let me use her apartment for my Reiki I attunement and was the "practice client" and she herself was very empathic/psychically aware. Additionally, we'd been told by a psychic that we had past lives together and this is why we probably had such a strong connection.

Literally, there were times when I knew she was down, so I'd send a text message of simply "hug" and she would send back, "thanks, I need that right then."

I have NEVER had that kind of connection with anyone before. Which is probably why I fell for her. Unfortunately things weren't meant to be between us. We are still friends though, just not quite that close anymore.

Thaak wrote:
I think you ethically can't resist.

Ethically can't! Bro, it's these kinda 'ethics', or lack of, that is part of the reason why we can't get Reiki into mainstream hospitals. At least on the scale that is needed. Are we really to blame the adminastrators of hospitals, whom refuse to let Reiki practitioners onto their wards professionally, because the Reiki folk might treat the patients without conscious permission? With the very idea making some patients anxious, nervous, when they're trying to convalece?

The actual lack of ethics with Reiki practiioners, is precisely the reason why many countries are having no choice, but to begin to regulate their own Reiki communities. UK & Australia immediately come to mind. Else, our credibility will be forever shot to pieces.


take care
Wayne

I think anytime you talk about something that cannot be scientifically quantified you are going to run into the ethics/credibility issue. I, for one, don't believe that you can separate a Reiki practice from your spiritual awareness. As such, to ignore your spiritual awareness as a "good business practice" sets up a very unhealthy paradigm.

But maybe that's just me.

Thaak wrote:
I think anytime you talk about something that cannot be scientifically quantified you are going to run into the ethics/credibility issue.

Well, hospitals are hardly gonna be comfortable letting Reiki practititioners in, if we can't even stick to medical ethics.

Thaak wrote:
I, for one, don't believe that you can separate a Reiki practice from your spiritual awareness. As such, to ignore your spiritual awareness as a "good business practice" sets up a very unhealthy paradigm.

But maybe that's just me.

no, and neither should You, . notice you said 'seperate from your spiritual awareness'. There's an issue when 'yours' becomes 'all others', as is the case with treating folks without permisssion, based on the practitioners personal spirituality.

Granted, they may have a gift/experiences, but, like i hope i've raised, there are other factors/implications to consider. Not least, what is really in the best interests of anyone that would be treated.

It's not simply about good business practice. It's about being professional so as we have enough credibility to get into the very places we are needed, i'e. hospitals. Professionalism doesn't just entail cash, it alludes to a certain standard, certain ethics.

Has one ever thought why within the medical community, if possible, one needs permsission? If someone is working within the field of healing, perhaps it should be explored how important it can be when someone with illness if full informed of all options, and takes an active role in their own healing.


Like Bruce suggested, there's no reason why we shouldn't at least have the same level of ethics than the medical community. In actual fact, we need more. As we, Reiki practictioners, deal in spirituality also, we should follow spiritual ethics as well.

Take care
Wayne

Oh gosh, dare I step in? Always a touchy subject with folks.

My view is to ask permission. I was taught to ask the higher self. But don't really adhere to a view of higher self in such a fashion anymore.

For me there are folks who are always allowed to send no matter what, even if they just want to do so for no particular reason.It's simple, if you're my bud and we've known each other for a bit then don't bother askin just go for it.

But in general I like to be asked first by those I don't know very well. Also different styles have different outlooks and that changes what is being sent. I may not be comfortable with a particular practitioner because of their specific outlooks which may worry me in some fashion.

The reason I ask is because I like to be asked. I do not assume that a friend wants Reiki ( even if they know they are free to send anytime and they are usually the type to ask anyways).

The idea of a higher self can be disputed and have different interpretations. And regardless of one's higher self or not I choose to respect their concious wishes.

I have had moments of not asking(rare). In one case I sent to an online bud cuz i knew she was having a rough patch. As best I could tell her higher self was cool with it. She felt great the next day and couldn't explain it. So I told her I had sent her Reiki. She then said " Well it helped and I appreciate it, but next time please ask." that was a better situation.

In another situation I shared Reiki with our family dog. Thing about tore my face of for a sec and was leery of me ever since. Decided he wanted to be aggressive regularly.

And I have heard of others who have recieved unpermissioned Reiki and felt violated almost like being spiritually raped.

That kind of thing is what changed my mind.

And also it seems rarer someone's higher self ever says " No." hmmmm.

And there are also times where someone uses the higher self idea as an excuse to not have to bring up Reiki to someone, be it a stranger or someone they thought would say "no".

And what happens when someone has a healing crisis and has no knowledge what one is or how to overcome what could be an extremely unpleasent situation. Even if "for the best" or "greatest good" i don't feel we have a right to force this unknowingly on someone.

So while I say it "may" be okay with Spirit there is no reason not go with a sure thing. I know it is not a violation of ethics to offer it to someone. If they say yes I have no worries. Nothing to discuss,debate or ponder.

Oops, I lost my posting.... I need to re-group my thoughts

Dave, I believe that folks do get passionate about how they
were taught and it seems to me that some folks feel that
sending distant Reiki without permission does no harm cause
if a person does not accept the Reiki Energy it goes back out
to the Universe. I have observed this topic being abused when
folks begin to attack the poster and not address the issue.
It's my understanding from postings I have read that some Reiki
systems/RMT do teach you can send Reiki without permission

chi_solas wrote:I believe that folks do get passionate about how they
were taught and it seems to me that some folks feel that
sending distant Reiki without permission does no harm cause
if a person does not accept the Reiki Energy it goes back out
to the Universe.

Yeah this is true. The interesting thing is, usually a personis saying this simply on the basis it's what they were taught, or is the majority consensus. when in fact, most havn't a clue if 'Reiki' goes out to the universe. How many folks who say that it does, are able to actually see or feel that it does? They obviously would need to be able to follow (by some sorta perception) 'Reiki' from them to another, and then beyond. Though, Reiki doesn't travel anywhere anyhow, imo, for a start. .

chi_solas wrote:
I have observed this topic being abused when
folks begin to attack the poster and not address the issue.

Yeah that can happen. Not here though, we got an 'army' of Admin/Mods, hehe. . Besides, this ofrum is pretty relaxed, respectful & supporting, with cool members. I feel/hope our forum will be an exception.

Take care
Wayne

I do want to mention that we have a Sunday Reiki share/exchange
section on Reikilearninglounge. If you want to take part in the share
you add your name and on Sunday when you send Reiki to all on the list
you record on the share/exchange section that you have sent Reiki to all.
For more details check out this section

Sometimes I feel it boils down to the basics....

Why are WE thinking for Reiki here??????????

Who are WE to say or conclude
-that Reiki goes here or there?
-that Reiki does this or that?

WE are just a vessel! 'Like a straw we channel'. End of job description!

IF Reiki is SPIRITUAL and INTELLIGENT, like we SAY we believe, then 'we should get out of the way'!
It KNOWS what to do!
It does not harm or rape! ( that's our projections about Reiki ) Above all we have INTENTION, if it is for the good, then it will be!
You JUST CAN'T use Reiki to harm, It is a SPIRITUAL ENERGY! It is like saying God is Stupid!

Yes, Asking permission is like respecting one's privacy. You can walk into an open house but it is polite to knock first. If applicable, that would be my first choice!

But what if somebody is choking inside or has lost their consciousness, are we going to stand around waiting for permission? I would not!
It's only a humane thing to reach out!

Otherwise I will just send it to 'the situation' with good intentions and then will LET IT GO. If I knew somebody wouldn't want it then I will not send.

We all have our own beliefs and there is no right or wrong!
and this is mine,

thehungrycaterpillar wrote:Sometimes I feel it boils down to the basics....

Why are WE thinking for Reiki here??????????

Maybe because 'Reiki' is the outward manifestation of our divine spark? .

thehungrycaterpillar wrote:
IF Reiki is SPIRITUAL and INTELLIGENT, like we SAY we believe, then 'we should get out of the way'!
It KNOWS what to do!

You're speaking as if Reiki was something other than us. It's not.

thehungrycaterpillar wrote:
But what if somebody is choking inside or has lost their consciousness, are we going to stand around waiting for permission? I would not!
It's only a humane thing to reach out!

If we at least model ourselves on medical ethics, it goes a long way...



Take care
Wayne

Maybe because 'Reiki' is the outward manifestation of our divine spark? .

You said , 'Maybe'!
So you don't know for sure, I know that I don't know or ANYBODY else for that matter.
NOBODY really knows! Nobody agrees! It's all individual assumption. Why do I have to waste my time trying to figure out WHERE it is coming from? I tried to find out, Nobody seems to know!
But the wonderful thing is I can feel it and I know it is beautiful and blissful and does nothing but heal!

You're speaking as if Reiki was something other than us. It's not.

Who is 'us'?
Our higher self? Do we know for sure? Surely can't be our egos. Our chakras?

Won't that become your personal energy then? How do you distinguish your personal energy from Reiki? Do they have different properties?
How can we possibly have endless supply of Reiki inside us?
If that is true, why is it not set in stone and why are people still arguing about it?

Then can we control it? manipulate it? If we can't, then it is not ours to claim!
when we claim, we think FOR it.

May be Reiki is Not an energy itself and is just a Format to harness a particular type of healing energy out of the bunch of ULFE!
Hey, it is still assumptions!

If we at least model ourselves on medical ethics, it goes a long way...

I do agree most of the times! (Yep,.... capable of conscious response)

Sometimes you just can't... Not everything is black and white!

Like when you send healing to mother earth, are you going to ask permission from the entire planet before that and since you can't, are you not going to send any healing?
What about war zones and disasters?

sometimes the description will be suitable when we are thinking big numbers, but sometimes one individual's life may feel like a disaster or a 'war zone'? - What if reiki sent will help them in whatever way they needed, for the situation, am I going to say No?



Who or what are we afraid of?

thehungrycaterpillar wrote:

Maybe because 'Reiki' is the outward manifestation of our divine spark? .

You said , 'Maybe'!
So you don't know for sure, I know that I don't know or ANYBODY else for that matter.
NOBODY really knows! Nobody agrees! It's all individual assumption. Why do I have to waste my time trying to figure out WHERE it is coming from? I tried to find out, Nobody seems to know!

When i said maybe, it wasn't mean i felt it's merely a possibility. It was meant in a suggestive way to you, .

i'm as sure as i can be about what i said. It's not just a hunch, .

thehungrycaterpillar wrote:

You're speaking as if Reiki was something other than us. It's not.

Who is 'us'?
Our higher self? Do we know for sure? Surely can't be our egos. Our chakras?

Ok. 'Us' is you , me, everyone. What else would it mean? Hehe.

If there is a higher self, it is one part of the complete picture.

Re: Ego's. Of course ego is a part of it. Ego is an essential part of a human. Without ego we wouldn't even be using computers now. The 'ego' is the organised realistic part of a human. I don't need to explain how useful that is, hehe.

Folks tend to automatically assume the 'ego' is some kinda 'enemy' that needs defeating. It's not exactly like that.

Re: Chakras. I wasn't talking about them specifically. I was talking about the complete 'us', . Though, now the subject is brought up, the endocrine glands, on which the chakras are based, are of course a prt of a complete you.

thehungrycaterpillar wrote:
Won't that become your personal energy then?

No, . This is because of the symbols, and what they do. This is why the will always be so important.

thehungrycaterpillar wrote:
How do you distinguish your personal energy from Reiki? Do they have different properties?

using your personal energy, will make you more suseptible to illness, even causing death. Within Reiki, as long as the initiation was done, intending to use Reiki is enough. This is when, even at level 1, the symbols are vital. They beocme active when you enter into an act of Reiki. This is why we don't feel tired, ill, etc.

Like i say, cause of the symbols. If, a person performs Reiju, obviously without symbols, on a person not initiated the denju way, it's beleived that the Reiju won't hold permanetely.

thehungrycaterpillar wrote:
How can we possibly have endless supply of Reiki inside us?

It's widely believed there is an endless supply of Reiki. Something i'm 'studying' atm, is that we might actually not. I've reasons for saying this, but won't elaborate. At least, not just yet. Although, things i can say are...

1) Quite a few RMT's have had strokes or heart attacks.

2) It has been, and still is by some, protocal to only initiate a very small number at level 3

3) When we think about it, Reiki is our divine spark. And we are confering on another a spiritual empowerment. What is causing this spiritual empowerment? My divine spark. Although it is divine, it is my divine spark. My spirit. It might not be as umlimited as some would make us beleive.

4) Takata sensei was a fully qualified teacher since 1936. Yet, it seems she only really went about teaching level 3, in the later stages of her life. This is only a tentative suggestion, perhaps the reason she began teaching so late in life was a balance between her own life-expecatancy, and the 'survival' of Reiki.

5) As james pointed out in another thread, some Japanese folks thought it shortened lifespan.

thehungrycaterpillar wrote:
If that is true, why is it not set in stone and why are people still arguing about it?

Well, this is the thing. Folks are so busy teaching about stuff not directly related to Reiki, that so much gets lost.

Others like sticking with the crowd, and going along with the current beliefs. And others, in the crowd wil instantly dismiss anything deemed 'rebellious' (rofl!), and instantly dismiss information, out of a dislike even contemplating something is actually another way.

Then, we have the folks who don't feel like studying Reiki or researching, telling all it's not needed. Hehe, how do they know what is & isn't needed, unless they do the studying themselves. It's daft dismissing information before you even coem across it, . They are of course entitled to their beliefs, though shouldn't try to invalidate the ones who seek to understand more.

thehungrycaterpillar wrote:
Then can we control it? manipulate it? If we can't, then it is not ours to claim!
when we claim, we think FOR it.

No, hehe. Reiki comes from my divine spark. Yet i can still trust in my divine spark to start a process that is Reiki. Then, my own body does the rest. This is why i don't need to control it. It's my body that does the healing.

Besides, we manipulate Reiki everytime we do it...

1: to treat or operate with or as if with the hands or by mechanical means especially in a skillful manner
2 a: to manage or utilize skillfully b: to control or play upon by artful, unfair, or insidious means especially to one's own advantage

Source: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/manipulate

thehungrycaterpillar wrote:
May be Reiki is Not an energy itself and is just a Format to harness a particular type of healing energy out of the bunch of ULFE!
Hey, it is still assumptions!

Reiki is an experience. Or limited awarenees may construe this as generally energy, yet, at times we all experience it as something more.

thehungrycaterpillar wrote:
Like when you send healing to mother earth, are you going to ask permission from the entire planet before that and since you can't, are you not going to send any healing?
What about war zones and disasters?


sometimes the description will be suitable when we are thinking big numbers, but sometimes one individual's life may feel like a disaster or a 'war zone'? - What if reiki sent will help them in whatever way they needed, for the situation, am I going to say No?

Does being sent Reiki wihtout permission, or, the people have no concept of Reiki, actually help them? Or, does it help our conscious just that little bit more.

thehungrycaterpillar wrote:
Who or what are we afraid of?

Exactly. I see no reason why someone can't just ask another 'do you want Reiki'. Or, lay their hands on folks spontaneously in the street. .

Take care
Wayne

ZenDave wrote:
In another situation I shared Reiki with our family dog. Thing about tore my face of for a sec and was leery of me ever since. Decided he wanted to be aggressive regularly.

I have two interesting experiences with animals:

First:

A girl I dated a couple times back in January has three birds and a cat for companions. She is in Veterinary school here at the University of Minnesota and has a history of migraines and long term headaches. She was experiencing one that week and I suggested that when I saw her on Saturday that I share some Reiki. She was very open to the idea, although she didn’t really know much about it.

First I started with a massage of her neck, shoulders and head, which she loved. And she was chattering away about something (I don’t remember what it was, but I was engaging in the conversation) and then I stopped massaging and let the Reiki flow. She immediately stopped talking, mid sentence. Not only that, her very noisy birds stopped talking too. The cat, who was asleep on the back of the couch became very curious and came nosing and pawing around at me to find out what I was doing.

The utter silence in that room was uncanny. When I had finished, it was like a switch flipped on and the animals all started making noise again, and the girl and I started our conversation as though it had not happened.

The animals were receiving Reiki as much as she was, and the permission came in the fact that they instinctively tapped into the energy despite the fact I wasn’t intending it for them.

Second:

This is a story I relayed on Reiki-4-All about a year or two ago. This was during the time of my Reiki master apprenticeship, just after it had started. I had just started offering free sessions to many people so that I could accomplish the 100 hours of Reiki sessions that my RMT required. I had been talking to my dad on the phone on my way home from a session with a terminally ill cancer patient. I had never felt the energy as strongly or significantly as I had that evening, so I wanted to discuss it with my dad.

I got home and was till on the phone with my dad, and walked downstairs to the basement I was renting from a friend, and a mouse was sitting there. It saw me and ran into the closet. Well I didn’t want a mouse in the closet, so I opened the bifold door and it ran out and sat just under the corner of my couch. I could still see it. It looked more curious than scared for some reason.

So I went upstairs and got something I could put over the mouse and some stiff card stock I could slide under it, so I could put it outside. It wasn’t going to be easy with the mouse under the couch, so I called out, “come on outta there little buddy,” and it came out from under the couch and looked up at me with its big beady eyes. I put the cup over it, slide under the card stock, all the while holding the phone with my shoulder to my ear having a conversation with my dad. The mouse almost got out, but wasn’t being violent or nasty about it. I put him outside and then didn’t think about him.

The next morning before my RMT was to arrive, I saw him walking around by my loveseat as I was sitting on the couch. I looked at him, and he looked at me. I gestured towards myself and said, “come on over here.” He did. I was flabberghasted. The mouse came over and hunkered down by my foot. So I reached down and petted him on the head with the tip of my index finger. He didn’t seem to mind. So I reached down and let him crawl into my hand. This again flabberghasted me. I played with him in my hands, letting him crawl around my fingers and such. He nuzzled the cracks between my fingers and gnawed a bit on my finger nails. So I got up and took him outside again.

Then I thought to myself. Shoot, this had to be a sign. I should have given the mouse Reiki. So I decided that if he showed up again, I would give him Reiki. Not 15 minutes after my RMT had left, I saw him in the hallway-like area between my living area and my bedroom. So I walked up, he did not run, and put my hand down and he crawled into my palm again. At first he appeared quite agitated and I wondered if he was going to bite me or pee on me or something. But when I sat down and did Reiki for him, he immediately fell asleep. When I was done, after about 10 minutes or so, I took him outside again, and had to latterly jostle him to get him off of my hand and onto the log pile.

I’d like to add, that I attuned the mouse that day.

So in short, I think we can get implied consent quite easily in certain circumstances.

Would this fly legally within medical ethics? Most likely not.

But unfortunately, because of the intuitive and spiritual nature of Reiki, it will not be accepted in traditional medical field completely until the entire medical system’s paradigm shifts.

thehungrycaterpillar wrote:Why are WE thinking for Reiki here??????????

Who are WE to say or conclude
-that Reiki goes here or there?
-that Reiki does this or that?

WE are just a vessel! 'Like a straw we channel'. End of job description!

IF Reiki is SPIRITUAL and INTELLIGENT, like we SAY we believe, then 'we should get out of the way'!
It KNOWS what to do!

IF reiki is spiritual and intelligent (and BTW, not everyone agrees on both of those points) and KNOWS what it must do, then who are WE to think that we should channel it? Why would it have to work through US?? If it really is as you've said, then wouldn't it be able to go to where it's needed, regardless of whether WE are doing anything or not?

And even if it does have to work through us, why are WE (most of us, anyway) taught about using standard hand positions for hands-on treatment? Wouldn't reiki go where it should, regardless of where our hands are?

And along those same lines, why do the Usui and Hayashi treatment manuals prescribe particular protocols for particular conditions? Again, wouldn't reiki go where it should, regardless of where WE apply it?

It does not harm or rape! ( that's our projections about Reiki )

On a message board a few years ago, someone posted about her sleep patterns being wrecked because someone was sending reiki to her every hour without her permission. She certainly didn't agree with the dogma about reiki never doing harm.

On another message board, someone repeatedly asserted the dogma her teacher had told her, that reiki does no harm. She also insulted everyone who dared to disagree with her about that. But then a few months later she experienced reiki during a flare-up of her autoimmune condition -- and then she backpedaled, conceding that reiki made the flare-up much worse and she had to stop the treatment.

Also on that message board, somebone posted that one of Takata's students confessed that the dogma about "no harm" was overstated.

Here are some of my conclusions:

1. As my mechanics professor said , "This is not an axiomatic system; at some point, reality has to intrude." Some time ago, somebody told somebody who told somebody else, that reiki does no harm. That's not enough to be sure about it.

2. Even IF -- a debatable point -- reiki doesn't do any harm, energy sent by reiki practitioners has in fact caused harm.

Above all we have INTENTION, if it is for the good, then it will be!

Hmmm, what was that saying about the road to Hell being paved with good intentions?

You JUST CAN'T use Reiki to harm, It is a SPIRITUAL ENERGY! It is like saying God is Stupid!

First of all, rei does not mean God. Somebody on a previous message board tried to argue that because rei = spirit and ki = energy, that means reiki is divinely guided energy. Beware of amateur translations. The following is my reconstruction of the response that I gave.

kaze = wind
ki = air, which is the substance of wind
rei = spirit
kami = spirit

Therefore, reiki must = kamikaze. Who knew that in World War II, those Japanese suicide pilots were actually just giving healing energy treatments to the crews of the U.S. military ships?

BTW, Chinese ling -- the same character as Japanese rei -- can be translated as "a ghost." Do you still think that "spiritual" necessarily means "God???"

In the teachings of the religious tradition with which I'm most familiar, prayer -- which is spiritual, right? addressed to God, right? -- was used to harm the enemies of the people who prayed.

Yes, Asking permission is like respecting one's privacy. You can walk into an open house but it is polite to knock first. If applicable, that would be my first choice!

But what if somebody is choking inside or has lost their consciousness, are we going to stand around waiting for permission? I would not!

This sort of situation is addressed in the "emergency doctrine" of medical ethics. Doctors can give life-saving treatment to a patient who does not have the capacity to consent or refuse regarding treatment. The emergency doctrine does NOT mean that doctors never have to obtain a patient's permission. If the patient has the capacity to either consent or refuse, then the patient's choice is to be honored.

Again, WE do not have any justification to be less ethical than medical professionals.

For example, a few years ago, when a family friend with cancer that had metastasized all over his abodmen refused my offer of long-distance energy healing sessions, that was his choice and I honored it. 2 or 3 weeks later he needed morphine shots every 5 minutes, and died soon after that, but who the !@#$%^&* would WE think we were if WE tried to sneak past his choice?

Bruce

Thaak wrote:
The animals were receiving Reiki as much as she was, and the permission came in the fact that they instinctively tapped into the energy despite the fact I wasn’t intending it for them.

Hi Andy,
Interesting expereinces! .

I'm wondering, just how did you know the animals were 'recieving' Reiki? Did you 'see' this?

If it's based on the, for sure - uncanny, cesation of all noise from the animals, might it not be worth pondering that the animals were simply able to sense, even 'see', that something they don't usually see, was occuring? Would this not attract their attention? ANd, even more so, if it wass something they were witnessing for the first time, perhaps it grabs theri attention even more, accounting for the silence, attention & curiousity.

Might throw another perspective on what was 'instinctively tapped' into, .

Thaak wrote:
I’d like to add, that I attuned the mouse that day.

You initiated the mouse into Reiki? Did the mouse then, or does it now, fully understand what was to happen?

And, depending on ones spiritual/religious belief, said mouse could actually be one of our relatives, in another reincarnation. We wouldn't iniate a human without fully informing them. So i'm curious as to what way it was done with the mouse?

Thaak wrote:
Would this fly legally within medical ethics? Most likely not.

But unfortunately, because of the intuitive and spiritual nature of Reiki, it will not be accepted in traditional medical field completely until the entire medical system’s paradigm shifts.

I wanted to really speak about this, between you & I. We've spoke briefly about ethics over the last few days. I'm kinda confused about things i'm assuming over this, .

To use your words, Reiki being 'intuitive & spiritual'. As far as i was aware, it's usually a part of spiritual ethics to get anothers express permission before we enter into a spiritual act for them. To do otherwise is forcing our own understanding of spirituality onto them.

You'd mentioned before to me, it'd be hard to explain why permisssion isn't required, unless one expriences it. Andy, just cause one doesn't feel the need to talk about it, doesn't mean one doesn't experience similar things. It's no biggy. I had one such memorable expereince with a Reiki4All member.

Even with that, and knowing they are obviously into Reiki, i went and got permission. Reason is, we're living in a physical world. In a contruct we call 'society'. There are all manner of ethics, of which spirituality is only a part. To attempt to portray one set of ethics over another, is not the best way for even the individual to do, imo.

In other words, spiritual ethics only hold complete dominion over a spiritual plane. In a physical plane, such as earth, we have other ethics equally as valid. We can quite easily place them all on an equal par. There's no conflict in this. .

Take care
Wayne

God dang it,




Loving all the juicy debates here!!!


Aw, Man,
I'll have to wait!!