Can Reiki be sent to the past or future?

Pandora wrote:
Reiki heals karma, and it heals situations. (It may not be quite as you expected though!) Try sending distance reiki with HSZSN to the past life situation between you and this person and see what happens.

Hi Chris,
'Reiki heals karma'. I used to say this, as i was taught it. How do you know it heals karma?

'Sending Reiki to the past'. The past doesn't exist, . I'll explain in my responce to Andy. What actually happens in Reiki, is a person experiences healing in whatever residual issues are left from a previous event.

If, as an example, a person was under hypnosis, and recalled a past-life event in which they done something that karmically was bad, well, if that bothered them now, it's gonna create an issue within them. So, Reiki would be useful then.

I'm not gonna comment on whether reincarnation exists here. That, and the potential cyclical nature of this current reality is something i'm also interested in, but will be to long for here.

Thaak wrote:

So you can certainly intend for the energy to work on the past (even past lives), present, and future, through time and space.

Not so Andy, . 'Time' exists in conjunction with 'space'. Not seperate from it. Time is what keeps the universe in it's present order, which is 'space'. space defines the existence of time, and gives it a point of reference.

If 'time' was able to exist apart from 'space' (universe), then 'time' would be continuous, i.e. there would be no past, present, future. there would therfore be no distinct identity of the 'future', meaning, it doesn't exist. So, if the 'future' existed, apart from the present 'time' (which is now) it would need to have a seperate 'space', that is, a seperate universe containing it.

To sum up, if one was 'sending' Reiki to the future, the 'time' in which the future is, must be in another 'space' as in another universe.

I personally like all this kinda stuff, as you can probably tell. As far as Reiki is concerned, i've an observation to repeat, .

Echart Tolle puts it perfectly when he says, (something along the lines of) 'the past is gone, an energetic imprint in the mind. The future hasn't happened yet. When we place our minds in the past or the future, we're never living fully in either of them, or the present'.

In Reiki, as in many spiritual paths, mindfulness is key, heck, Usui sensei gave us a clue, when he provided HSZSN, which is a call to mindfullness. Using a call to mindfulness to think we can do things that are in fact nothing to do with living in the moment, is weird, imo. .

what we do, or, what our ego does for us, is disguise the way it wants us to be. Sometimes it does this within spiritual things. It can do it so well we wouldn't beleive, even if it's pointed out to us.

In reality, it's another ego 'trick', to help reinforce there is something other than 'only this true moment'. It becomes so ingrained into our psyche, that no matter what is said, or shown, it's wrong, .

Take care
Wayne

Milarepa wrote:

Thaak wrote:

So you can certainly intend for the energy to work on the past (even past lives), present, and future, through time and space.

Not so Andy, . 'Time' exists in conjunction with 'space'. Not seperate from it. Time is what keeps the universe in it's present order, which is 'space'. space defines the existence of time, and gives it a point of reference.

If 'time' was able to exist apart from 'space' (universe), then 'time' would be continuous, i.e. there would be no past, present, future. there would therfore be no distinct identity of the 'future', meaning, it doesn't exist. So, if the 'future' existed, apart from the present 'time' (which is now) it would need to have a seperate 'space', that is, a seperate universe containing it.

To sum up, if one was 'sending' Reiki to the future, the 'time' in which the future is, must be in another 'space' as in another universe.

I personally like all this kinda stuff, as you can probably tell. As far as Reiki is concerned, i've an observation to repeat, .

Echart Tolle puts it perfectly when he says, (something along the lines of) 'the past is gone, an energetic imprint in the mind. The future hasn't happened yet. When we place our minds in the past or the future, we're never living fully in either of them, or the present'.

In Reiki, as in many spiritual paths, mindfulness is key, heck, Usui sensei gave us a clue, when he provided HSZSN, which is a call to mindfullness. Using a call to mindfulness to think we can do things that are in fact nothing to do with living in the moment, is weird, imo. .

what we do, or, what our ego does for us, is disguise the way it wants us to be. Sometimes it does this within spiritual things. It can do it so well we wouldn't beleive, even if it's pointed out to us.

In reality, it's another ego 'trick', to help reinforce there is something other than 'only this true moment'. It becomes so ingrained into our psyche, that no matter what is said, or shown, it's wrong, .

Take care
Wayne

I don't disagree with you Wayne. But throwing the ultimate esoteric commentary at someone who is looking for a little comfort and tools to help themselves, we often have to use terminology popular amongst Consensual Reality belief systems.

The past does exist. Time does exist. It just doesn't exist linearly. Just because every moment is now, does not mean that there is no past or future. It simply is a different paradigm.

Thaak wrote:

I don't disagree with you Wayne. But throwing the ultimate esoteric commentary at someone who is looking for a little comfort and tools to help themselves, we often have to use terminology popular amongst Consensual Reality belief systems.

Point taken, . I don't see any usefulness in propagating something that could very well be a 'myth' within Reiki though. Which is why i feel compelled to give an alternate view.

Thaak wrote:
The past does exist.

How does it exist? Where does it exist? What are you basing this on?

Thaak wrote:
Time does exist.

Yes, i've already pointed out that 'time' is a measurment used within 'space' (universe). It's the 4th dimension physicists have used to explain many issues. This isn't the same as saying that the past & future exist. They'd have to exist within the universe (space), and they don't.

Thaak wrote:
It just doesn't exist linearly.

It doesn't? It's quite easy to show how 'time' works linear, your whole life revoles around it. What other way are you talking about, and can you illustrate it, whilst showing that time also isn't linear? I supect i know what you're talking about, but no sense me answering for you bro! .

Now i think about it Andy, if time isn't linear, then there can be no past, present or future, as they are linear concepts. There can only be now.

You might wanna check out Julian Barbour, he's a physicist that has donw immense reseeach into the concept of time...

The end of time
Closely related to this work is my study of time. Mach remarked “It is utterly beyond our power to measure the changes of things by time. Quite the contrary, time is an abstraction at which we arrive through the changes of things.” Thus, time as such does not exist but only change. Much of my research has been devoted to the implications of this insight. I have shown how, alongside the relativity of motion, the notion of time as change can be built into the foundations of dynamics. In fact, this idea is contained in a hidden form within general relativity. Its potential consequences for the yet to be found quantum mechanics of the universe are profound. The quantum universe is likely to be static. Motion and the apparent passage of time may be nothing but very well founded illusions. This is the thesis of The End of Time (books), which is aimed both at the general reader and physicists.

Source: http://www.platonia.com/index.html

Thaak wrote:
Just because every moment is now, does not mean that there is no past or future. It simply is a different paradigm.

No, that's the exact reason why the two concepts can't co-exist. how can there truely ever only be now, if on some other level, there is the past & future also? Echart Tolle can explain the psychological aspect better..

Nothing Exists Outside The Now

Aren't past and future just as real, sometimes even more real, than the present? After all, the past determines who we are, as well as how we perceive and behave in the present. And our future goals determine which actions we take in the present.

You haven't yet grasped the essence of what I am saying because you are trying to understand it mentally. The mind cannot understand this. Only you can. Please just listen.

Have you ever experienced, done, thought, or felt anything outside the Now? Do you think you ever will? Is it possible for anything to happen or be outside the Now? The answer is obvious, is it not? Nothing ever happened in the past; it happened in the Now. Nothing will ever happen in the future; it will happen in the Now. What you think of as the past is a memory trace, stored in the mind, of a former Now. When you remember the past, you reactivate a memory trace - and you do so now. The

future is an imagined Now, a projection of the mind. When the future comes, it comes as the Now. When you think about the future, you do it now. Past and future obviously have no reality of their own. Just as the moon has no light of its own, but can only reflect the light of the sun, so are past and future only pale reflections of the light, power, and reality of the eternal present. Their reality is "borrowed" from the Now.

The essence of what I am saying here cannot be understood by the mind. The moment you grasp it, there is a shift in consciousness from mind to Being, from time to presence. Suddenly, everything feels alive, radiates energy, emanates Being.

source: Tolle, power of now, pg 36/37

Some other notable quotes on the subject of time...

"Take no thought for the morrow; for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself," or "Nobody who puts his hands to the plow and looks back is fit for the Kingdom of God."

New Testament.

"What, at this moment, is lacking?"

Zen Master Rinzai. Designed to take a students attention away from time.

"If not now, when?"

Zen saying.

"The Sufi is the son of time present."

Sufi saying.

"Past and future veil God from our sight; burn up both of them with fire."

Rumi, great Sufi mystic.

"Time is what keeps the light from reaching us. There is no greater obstacle to God than time."

Meister Eckhart. 13th century mystic.

The reason why this is whole illusion of time is so important, is once it begins to get dealt with, it's one of the most libertaing expereinces a person can have. I myself only began to expereince it via debating on Reiki4All, and studying the whole concept at the same time. Eckhart can explain why it's useful..

I can see the supreme importance of the Now, but I cannot quite go along with you when you say that time is a complete illusion.

When I say "time is an illusion," my intention is not to make a philosophical statement. I am just reminding you of a simple fact - a fact so obvious that you may find it hard to grasp and may even find it meaningless - but once fully realized, it can cut like a sword through all the mind-created layers of complexity and "problems." Let me say it again: the present moment is all you ever have. There is never a time when your life is not "this moment." Is this not a fact?

Source: Tolle, power fo now, pg 41.

The Wheeler-Dewitt equation, was created about 40 years ago, and is said to explain the universe mathemticaly. The interesting thing is, it was able to do this by taking time out of the equation.

I really encourage this article from New scientist to be looked at:- http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg19726391.500-is-time-an-illusion.html?full=true

take care
Wayne

Wayne, I think you're getting two concepts confused here.

The first is that of "science" - the physical explanations of why time is a human concept but which is meaningless at a Universal level.

The second is that of time being a human concept. It is central to the experience of every human being that has ever lived. We all have memories of a former existence - whether that be the existence I had when I was typing the letter "h" of "had", or the existence I had when I was first married nearly 30 years ago, or the existence I had when I was being born. None of these existences can be denied, as the product of them is typing this now. We all have evidence of human beings that have preceded us - as without our parents/grandparents/ancestors, there would be no us to experience this moment.

This is why the concept of sending Reiki to the past (my past) or the future (my future) is central to HSZSN. As long as we are the product of our past experiences, we will carry hurts which need healing. The concept of "be here now" is all well and good, but it doesn't address the question of "what is being here now"? I am being here now. I, with all my family's dented hopes and expectations: with all my life experiences: with all my life lessons and responsibilities. I am the one who is being here now. And that I is the one who needs healing. Yes we can have unconditional positive regard for our client: but isn't that saying "You are you and you are great despite what you have been in the past"?

When you ask me how I can prove that Reiki heals karma, well I can but you wouldn't believe it... and I refer you to the quote "if I hadn't have believed I wouldn't have seen it"... let me just say that at least one family "miasm" (in the homeopathic sense) has been healed by Reiki.

I see you've pulled this into a new topic, and I've posted a reply in the old topic. How do I change or otherwise signpost the location of that post?

it's ok Chris. I'm having problems splitting them up properly. I'll sort this out very soon.

Pandora wrote:Wayne, I think you're getting two concepts confused here.

I've read your post Chris, i think it's you who is confused, . I've been broaching with many multiple-concepts re: Time.

Pandora wrote:
The first is that of "science" - the physical explanations of why time is a human concept but which is meaningless at a Universal level.

I dunno if you've noticed in my posts, but i drew on pretty comprehensive information regarding science. I didn't focus solely on newtonian science, but ventured into quantum mechanics. This was to pre-empt any possible chat that way.

I also dealt with psychological time. This was via Eckhart Tolle.

Then, i quoted many great spiritual things, also supporting how useless it is to try to deal with time, within a spiritual path.

I'd hoped you with your academic background could easily see i was being as comprehensive as possible, tackling many areas in one post. .

Pandora wrote:
The second is that of time being a human concept. It is central to the experience of every human being that has ever lived. We all have memories of a former existence - whether that be the existence I had when I was typing the letter "h" of "had", or the existence I had when I was first married nearly 30 years ago, or the existence I had when I was being born. None of these existences can be denied, as the product of them is typing this now. We all have evidence of human beings that have preceded us - as without our parents/grandparents/ancestors, there would be no us to experience this moment.

This is where you are confused Chris, . With the utmost respect, . Yes, time is a human concept, we created it to make sense of our lives, and of the universe.

The memories you had of typing the letter 'h'. Is only a memory. 'You' still aren't somewhere eternally typing that 'h', to be accessed. When you typed that 'h' it was a 'now'. If you went in a time machine to when you typed that 'h', it wopuld then be your 'now'. This is the psychological 'time' Eckhart Tolle speaks of.

You gettign married 30 years ago, as of this moment, is an energetic imprint on your mind. That day 30 years ago, was 'now'.

This is where the confusion seems to be. I wasn't suggesting that things havn't happend in peoples lives before today. That's silly. If we cast our minds back to what we done at any time yesterday, at any time, it was always 'now'.

If there was such a thing as the past, it needs to be stored somewhere physical, i.e. 'space', a universe. If we are talkling about a supposed future, well jeepers! As we have free will, there needs to be such a 'space' to store all the possible 'futures' it's mind-blowing.

Without 'space', 'time' would be a constant. Therefore, there still would only be 'now'. This is what's so exciting about science nowadays, so much of it is now in actual agreement with very old spirituality.

Pandora wrote:
This is why the concept of sending Reiki to the past (my past) or the future (my future) is central to HSZSN.

Chris, HSZSN is essentially a call to mindfulness. In mindfullness it's fully living in the moment. There's no room for any notion of past or future. It's another mind-trick, .

Pandora wrote:
As long as we are the product of our past experiences, we will carry hurts which need healing. The concept of "be here now" is all well and good, but it doesn't address the question of "what is being here now"? I am being here now. I, with all my family's dented hopes and expectations: with all my life experiences: with all my life lessons and responsibilities. I am the one who is being here now. And that I is the one who needs healing. Yes we can have unconditional positive regard for our client: but isn't that saying "You are you and you are great despite what you have been in the past"?

Ok. whatever one has experienced up to now helps mould them as a person. If they come to us for healing, they come 'now' for healing. If they recieve healing, they recieve it 'now'. That's the only quantifiable, veifiable way.

I havn't heard this has happened before, but i thought about it a couple years ago. Let's say someone comes to me for a treatment. I do what i do, then they say they felt nothing. I say, well sometimes you don't, and actually, this time i 'sent' Reiki to one of your former lives, or to when you where a child. The client becomes irate, and threatens to sue me. Let's say it did go to the small claims court, UK. It'd be an interesting court day proving how i really did send Reiki to a past life.

Pandora wrote:
When you ask me how I can prove that Reiki heals karma, well I can but you wouldn't believe it... and I refer you to the quote "if I hadn't have believed I wouldn't have seen it"... let me just say that at least one family "miasm" (in the homeopathic sense) has been healed by Reiki.

I would quite possible beleive it Chris, it's no accident that saying is in my signature. This isn't directed at you, i mean that, but, folks rattle of all these various concepts within Reiki, and very few seems able to show the truthfullness, or the usefulness, of it all. Concepts spread like wildfire, and before long they become 'fact', simply cause most repeat it. So, when someone comes out and says, ok, you've made a statement, i'm gonna show you how it's not like that, it's cool to see exactly why they think otherwise, .

Edit: I don't wanna know any specifics of folks expereinces, per se, if issues are sensitive, . What i can suggest is that whatever happens to any of us, we can carry with us an energetic issue of that previous event. when we enter into a process within Reiki in which we think we're healing the past, we aren't in fact changing anything about that thing. It still happened. What we in fact do, is assist with healing now, with whatever enegetic issue we have carried within us, since then.

It's often occurence within Reiki, that we Reiki practitioners assume we're doing things, say we're doing something, but in fact, something else is occuring. There's an outcome of course, usually a positive one, but what's actually happening is something else. IMO, it's part of the reason we feel compelled to 'congregate' together. Be it on forum's or in person. To learn from each other, .

Take care
Wayne

Then how do you explain when someone misses an appointment, and so the next day they send Reiki. The person calls them and really thanks them for the energy and they say they felt it on the day of the appointment.

One of my mom and dad's friends witnessed a horrible car accident where a fellow riding a bike was hit by a car and got trapped by the car and was dragged between the bottom of the car and the pavement for several yards. She came to my mom & dad's healing group that night, and asked that they all send Reiki to that situation. The next day she found out that the guy was barely injured, but she witnessed horrible injuries.

To our conscious mind, these two examples represent sending Reiki to the past.

As far as all the scientific and philosophical stuff...

I believe (have no proof, but believe) that Time is not linear. I have some experiential reasoning for this, but I don't understand it well enough myself to really discuss it here. But much of my Shamanic training and experiences tell me this is true, so it is not just blind faith.

Hi Andy,
It'd be nice if you could respond to my questions and lengthy points, instead of ignoring them, whilst providing questions of your own, . It makes whatever i write as if i'm wasting my time, as there's no direct interaction with it. I don't mean this in an ignorant way, as i see you as a good freind, .

I'll give you the courtesy, and directly respond. Which is what i always do with all posts i'm involved with.

Thaak wrote:Then how do you explain when someone misses an appointment, and so the next day they send Reiki. The person calls them and really thanks them for the energy and they say they felt it on the day of the appointment.

You need to be more specific in what you mean here, but i'll take a stab at it. If you're saying that i as a Reiki practitioner was meant to treat someone (presumably via distance) at a certain time, and forgot, but sent it a different time, and the client contacted to say they felt it at the appointment time, there's a pretty simple explanation.

The person expected to feel it at that time, so they felt 'something'. Yeah, a placebo effect. Now, when folks think of th eplacebo effect, they automatically think it's some kinda false healing. In reality, if the placebo effect was related percentage-wise to a drug trial in itself, it would clearly pass the trial. We as Reiki practitioners should remember, that in effect, 'we' don't heal, the only true healer is the cleint. So, if the client beleives they are recieving Reiki now (although it's not sent), and be it mentally, emotionally or otherwise, some kinda internal healing reaction within themselves kicks into place, then sure, healing may occur, they may 'feel' Reiki was being sent.

We also have to remember, a person's reality dictates what they experience. I don't see a need for protection in Reiki, so if i go down town, and feel tired, i'm just tired. Another person, who feels they need protection, might do down town feel tired, and think an 'energy vampire' is sucking the life outta them. A persons perception shapes their own reality to a large extent.

Thaak wrote:
One of my mom and dad's friends witnessed a horrible car accident where a fellow riding a bike was hit by a car and got trapped by the car and was dragged between the bottom of the car and the pavement for several yards. She came to my mom & dad's healing group that night, and asked that they all send Reiki to that situation. The next day she found out that the guy was barely injured, but she witnessed horrible injuries.

To our conscious mind, these two examples represent sending Reiki to the past.

Unfortunately Andy, that doesn't show what you think. I trust in your truthfullness, so if you tell me that right at that accident, the person had actual injuries, but after the Reiki 'past' session the injuries had vanished, then yes, this would be a point.

What you've told me here is that someone looked to have a horrible accident. It would need to be ascertained if the friend was close enough to see the horrible injuries, not just some blood, as that can look worse than it is, and not just what looks like a bad accident, as many have bad accidents but seems to escape unscathed. I'd be quite surprised if what i think is being suggested here, that someone had horrible injuries in an accident, yet the next day the injuries were gone, that kinda thing grabs local news headlines at least?

Thaak wrote:
As far as all the scientific and philosophical stuff...

I believe (have no proof, but believe) that Time is not linear. I have some experiential reasoning for this, but I don't understand it well enough myself to really discuss it here. But much of my Shamanic training and experiences tell me this is true, so it is not just blind faith.

That's fine Andy, . I won't doubt your personal expereince. I'll just say, that last night i spent quite a bit of time gathering information from science, philosophy & spirituality, that spans 1000's of years, and showed it all says the same thing. Many great minds i quoted bro. That's about as much i can do, so i respect your position, .

Take care
Wayne

Milarepa wrote:Hi Andy,
It'd be nice if you could respond to my questions and lengthy points, instead of ignoring them, whilst providing questions of your own, . It makes whatever i write as if i'm wasting my time, as there's no direct interaction with it. I don't mean this in an ignorant way, as i see you as a good freind, .

I thought I had. Sorry if it seemed I'd ignored your work. I did not.

I am just not a big fan, and never have been, of "in-line" posting. So I try to cover the points.

And were I to do the work as you did, I could find just as many philosophical writings that agree with my points. As a matter of fact, many of the writers that you quoted have written things that support my point.

Thaak wrote:

Milarepa wrote:Hi Andy,
It'd be nice if you could respond to my questions and lengthy points, instead of ignoring them, whilst providing questions of your own, . It makes whatever i write as if i'm wasting my time, as there's no direct interaction with it. I don't mean this in an ignorant way, as i see you as a good freind, .

I thought I had. Sorry if it seemed I'd ignored your work. I did not.

I am just not a big fan, and never have been, of "in-line" posting. So I try to cover the points.

And were I to do the work as you did, I could find just as many philosophical writings that agree with my points. As a matter of fact, many of the writers that you quoted have written things that support my point.

Show me Andy, . The most optimal times i've had for personal growth is when i find out i'm mistaken. I need to set aside my own wrong views.

Milarepa wrote:

Thaak wrote:
One of my mom and dad's friends witnessed a horrible car accident where a fellow riding a bike was hit by a car and got trapped by the car and was dragged between the bottom of the car and the pavement for several yards. She came to my mom & dad's healing group that night, and asked that they all send Reiki to that situation. The next day she found out that the guy was barely injured, but she witnessed horrible injuries.

To our conscious mind, these two examples represent sending Reiki to the past.

Unfortunately Andy, that doesn't show what you think. I trust in your truthfullness, so if you tell me that right at that accident, the person had actual injuries, but after the Reiki 'past' session the injuries had vanished, then yes, this would be a point.

What you've told me here is that someone looked to have a horrible accident. It would need to be ascertained if the friend was close enough to see the horrible injuries, not just some blood, as that can look worse than it is, and not just what looks like a bad accident, as many have bad accidents but seems to escape unscathed. I'd be quite surprised if what i think is being suggested here, that someone had horrible injuries in an accident, yet the next day the injuries were gone, that kinda thing grabs local news headlines at least?

Actually I believe that she saw the skin of the lower leg abraded to the bone and the ankle off at a terrible angle. She also had heard radio reports that indicated that the person was in severe condition at the hospital with broken bones and severe abrasions.

The next day the person walked out of the hospital with no broken bones and minor abrasions.

The friend in question, Arlene is her name, had a vision (after the Reiki session) of angle hands lifting the leg off the ground to avoid the worst of the injuries.

An event that had an actual outcome was literally and physically changed at the point of incident after the causal effect had been determined. The effect was changed after the fact because of the Reiki.

Now of course this could be explained in any number of ways to fit within the box of consensual reality science. But I like to believe in miracles.

Thaak wrote:

Milarepa wrote:

Thaak wrote:
One of my mom and dad's friends witnessed a horrible car accident where a fellow riding a bike was hit by a car and got trapped by the car and was dragged between the bottom of the car and the pavement for several yards. She came to my mom & dad's healing group that night, and asked that they all send Reiki to that situation. The next day she found out that the guy was barely injured, but she witnessed horrible injuries.

To our conscious mind, these two examples represent sending Reiki to the past.

Unfortunately Andy, that doesn't show what you think. I trust in your truthfullness, so if you tell me that right at that accident, the person had actual injuries, but after the Reiki 'past' session the injuries had vanished, then yes, this would be a point.

What you've told me here is that someone looked to have a horrible accident. It would need to be ascertained if the friend was close enough to see the horrible injuries, not just some blood, as that can look worse than it is, and not just what looks like a bad accident, as many have bad accidents but seems to escape unscathed. I'd be quite surprised if what i think is being suggested here, that someone had horrible injuries in an accident, yet the next day the injuries were gone, that kinda thing grabs local news headlines at least?

Actually I believe that she saw the skin of the lower leg abraded to the bone and the ankle off at a terrible angle. She also had heard radio reports that indicated that the person was in severe condition at the hospital with broken bones and severe abrasions.

The next day the person walked out of the hospital with no broken bones and minor abrasions.

The friend in question, Arlene is her name, had a vision (after the Reiki session) of angle hands lifting the leg off the ground to avoid the worst of the injuries.

An event that had an actual outcome was literally and physically changed at the point of incident after the causal effect had been determined. The effect was changed after the fact because of the Reiki.

Now of course this could be explained in any number of ways to fit within the box of consensual reality science. But I like to believe in miracles.

If what you're friend said here is true, that's a pretty cool tale for sure! With the local media reporting at the accident, was there no follow up the next day, or in the local papers. That's something that is so news-worthy in fact it's a wonder it wasn't national news.

Milarepa wrote:

Thaak wrote:

Milarepa wrote:Hi Andy,
It'd be nice if you could respond to my questions and lengthy points, instead of ignoring them, whilst providing questions of your own, . It makes whatever i write as if i'm wasting my time, as there's no direct interaction with it. I don't mean this in an ignorant way, as i see you as a good freind, .

I thought I had. Sorry if it seemed I'd ignored your work. I did not.

I am just not a big fan, and never have been, of "in-line" posting. So I try to cover the points.

And were I to do the work as you did, I could find just as many philosophical writings that agree with my points. As a matter of fact, many of the writers that you quoted have written things that support my point.

Show me Andy, . The most optimal times i've had for personal growth is when i find out i'm mistaken. I need to set aside my own wrong views.

I went back and re-looked through many of your quotes. And I believe that even Tolle's actually substantiates my thought rather than disproves it. He asks if you've ever experienced the past and says that you did not. That it only triggers a memory trace from a different now.

In my shamanic work, there are techniques you can use to go back and actually experience things that have already happened or things that have yet to happen (when considering our Consensual Reality view of linear time.) When you consider that all things happen simultaneously, that time is but a construct, it does not mean that past, present and future do not exist. Yes, this appears to be a paradox.

But the only reason it appears as such, is because it is a different paradigm that our minds cannot understand. Yet.

The reported new shift in energy that is coming (now, soon, 2012?) is reportedly going step humans outside of time. Time will no longer exist as we know it today. It doesn't mean that time will not exist at all. It is just that we will perceive it differently. This different perception will allow us to see the apparent paradox as a normal happening.

Milarepa wrote:

If what you're friend said here is true, that's a pretty cool tale for sure! With the local media reporting at the accident, was there no follow up the next day, or in the local papers. That's something that is so news-worthy in fact it's a wonder it wasn't national news.

Indeed, however because consensual reality doesn't understand and can't conceptualize this kind of thing, the doctors just wrote it off as mistaken diagnosis at the scene of the event. The original media reports were written off as mistaken, and the new media reports simply stated how lucky the guy was because it "could" have been so much worse.

So whether it happened as explained by Arlene, or she was mistaken...

I'll leave it up to what you want to believe is the truth. The skeptic in me wants to poo-poo this experience. But the mystic in me rejoices at the beauty of the experience.

Thaak wrote:

I went back and re-looked through many of your quotes. And I believe that even Tolle's actually substantiates my thought rather than disproves it. He asks if you've ever experienced the past and says that you did not. That it only triggers a memory trace from a different now.

I can't see how Andy. Tolle specifically deals with psychological time, and throughout the power of now he says there only is now, no past or future. He's wuite clear in his language with this.

Thaak wrote:
In my shamanic work, there are techniques you can use to go back and actually experience things that have already happened or things that have yet to happen (when considering our Consensual Reality view of linear time.) When you consider that all things happen simultaneously, that time is but a construct, it does not mean that past, present and future do not exist. Yes, this appears to be a paradox.

But the only reason it appears as such, is because it is a different paradigm that our minds cannot understand. Yet.

I can undertsand what you're saying here. There's another vein of thought, (and this is as good a time as any to say it, hehe), that although there only is now, there is multiples 'nows' occuring. Or, let me put it this way, there's a scientific body of folks now, that actually are saying what you & i both are, but kinda amalgamtaing it. I'm gonna provde the youtube link for a 25 min video from a very cool physicist. It kinda looks like a trippy film, hehe, and it looks for some time to support my own views, but if you watch to the end, in fact, he doesn't support my own view as much. Which is good to show in the interest of fairness.

Thaak wrote:
The reported new shift in energy that is coming (now, soon, 2012?) is reportedly going step humans outside of time. Time will no longer exist as we know it today. It doesn't mean that time will not exist at all. It is just that we will perceive it differently. This different perception will allow us to see the apparent paradox as a normal happening.

Ohhh, you had to say it! Hehe, i'm into that stuff in a big way. So much so i thought about suggesting a forum here for it, but kinda felt uneasy, since this is a Reiki learning lounge. .

take care
Wayne

Thaak wrote:

Indeed, however because consensual reality doesn't understand and can't conceptualize this kind of thing, the doctors just wrote it off as mistaken diagnosis at the scene of the event. The original media reports were written off as mistaken, and the new media reports simply stated how lucky the guy was because it "could" have been so much worse.

So whether it happened as explained by Arlene, or she was mistaken...

I'll leave it up to what you want to believe is the truth. The skeptic in me wants to poo-poo this experience. But the mystic in me rejoices at the beauty of the experience.

It's definitely gave me pause for thought, i'm really grateful to you for that!

i've found, that a dose of skepticism is in fact very useful. If one goes about beleiving every single, sometimes whimsical, concept, it impedes a person's growth more than anything. This of course has to be more than evenly balanced with open-mindness. At least, that's the formula that's worked for me, hehe.

Take care
Wayne

On the subject of time, I just came across this passage in a book called 'Tarot and the Journey of the Hero', by Hanjo Bhanzaf, but the author is talking about the book Siddhartha by Herman Hesse:

"It is this deep understanding that Siddartha found toward the end of his journey, when he learned from the river that there is no time at all; the river is everywhere at the same time, at the source and at the mouth, at the waterfall, at the ferry, at the current, in the ocean and in the mountains - everywhere at the same time. Only the present exists for it, not the shadow of the past, nor the shadow of the future."

I thought it was quite a nice way to describe the Now.

Ai to Hikari
Colin

Wayne, with respect, I don't think I'm confused. I saw very clearly the point I was trying to make - it was as if it was given to me by someone with more experience than I have!

The concept of "sum over histories" is one which I particularly like. It's Richard Feynman's explanation for what we experience as reality. In some versions of the quantum universe, everything actually happens (think Schrodinger's Cat) at the same time. What we experience as reality is the "sum over history" of each event - the sum total of experience, if you like.

I would also point out that nobody has the monopoly on truth, especially not in a forum like this. So saying that someone is "confused" is like claiming that you are not, but you can see someone else's confusion. My perspective is that things are not what they seem - but what things are, only God knows!

Pandora wrote:Wayne, with respect, I don't think I'm confused. I saw very clearly the point I was trying to make - it was as if it was given to me by someone with more experience than I have!

The concept of "sum over histories" is one which I particularly like. It's Richard Feynman's explanation for what we experience as reality. In some versions of the quantum universe, everything actually happens (think Schrodinger's Cat) at the same time. What we experience as reality is the "sum over history" of each event - the sum total of experience, if you like.

Yes, i'm familiar briefly with this stuff, i've also just posted a youtube video earlier which is the same vein.

So i can fully understand what you're saying to me. Ok, we got all these different versions, i'll call them different 'nows'. So, the summation is what we experience as reality. I get this. Tell me then, how we have that, and we have a 'past' & a 'future', to start with, .

If i can get that clear, help me understand how it happens that we can change one of these 'nows' (presuming we are changing only one), and that's so powerful it brings change in the summation, which is in fact changing all?

That's a pretty powerful concept. And maybe most importantly, if it's changing all aspects of now, and changing reality in some way, does one excatly know the possible ramifications of doing such a thing?

Is reality changed just for us, for our 'issue'? Or does the pebble make bigger ripples in the pond? You'r esurely aware, even the thoughts we have for each other affects many others..

That's a fair bit of questions i have there, hehe, but if you can find the time, i feel i'll better be able to understand what's being suggested. You seem to know a fair bit about stuff i'm also interested in, so i hope you'll appreciate it's not enough for any of us to make a blanket statement, without expanding, if asked, .

Pandora wrote:
I would also point out that nobody has the monopoly on truth, especially not in a forum like this. So saying that someone is "confused" is like claiming that you are not, but you can see someone else's confusion.

I won't disagree with this. Though it was you who felt able to first point out i was confused about what i was talking about, so at least grant me the same luxury, if i also feel it applies?

Science is beginning to be quite capable at explaining things that spirituality has been saying for 1000's of years, which is why i used it here. There was never confusion of concepts. Fusion of many concepts would be more apt.

Take care
Wayne

Milarepa wrote:

Thaak wrote:Then how do you explain when someone misses an appointment, and so the next day they send Reiki. The person calls them and really thanks them for the energy and they say they felt it on the day of the appointment.

You need to be more specific in what you mean here, but i'll take a stab at it. If you're saying that i as a Reiki practitioner was meant to treat someone (presumably via distance) at a certain time, and forgot, but sent it a different time, and the client contacted to say they felt it at the appointment time, there's a pretty simple explanation.

The person expected to feel it at that time, so they felt 'something'. Yeah, a placebo effect.

The placebo effect is a point we really should keep in mind. Too many practitioners ignore it when they talk about "proof" of something working. Some of the better-designed experiments that Oschmann cites take into account the placebo effect by having non-practitioners pretending to treat patients, as well as practitioners treating patients -- and then comparing the results.

Now, when folks think of th eplacebo effect, they automatically think it's some kinda false healing. In reality, if the placebo effect was related percentage-wise to a drug trial in itself, it would clearly pass the trial.

I'm not sure of what you mean by that. Drug trials usually control for the placebo effect by comparing results of the drug with results of a placebo.

Bruce

Bruce wrote:

Now, when folks think of th eplacebo effect, they automatically think it's some kinda false healing. In reality, if the placebo effect was related percentage-wise to a drug trial in itself, it would clearly pass the trial.

I'm not sure of what you mean by that. Drug trials usually control for the placebo effect by comparing results of the drug with results of a placebo.

Hi Bruce,
It was a kinda off-the-cuff remark. I was implying that the effectivness of the placebo effect in itself, and the frequency of it working within medicince (as it's used within medicince), if we relayed that in proportion to what is required for any drug to pass a drug trial, then the placebo effe3ct in itself would be an effective medicinal avenue. I should've explained that better, apologies, as i've went now in a complete circle. Since the placebo effect is in use in medicine, hehe.

Take care
wayne

My two cents (two pence?) on past and future.

Many reiki people talk about sending reiki back to the past. So far as I've seen, that's the same as saying they use reiki to treat the present perception of the past, rather than actually changing past events. (Wayne, good point about "psychological past.") Andy's friend's story might indicate something different happened, but I don't have enough info. about it to be able to comment.

As for physics . . . . On a quantum scale, some experiments do suggest that the future might in some way be able to communicate with the past. How? I don't know. And I think that high-energy physicists don't know either. On a macroscopic scale, within a closed system, entropy always increases to the maximum -- the third law of thermodynamics gives an indication of time by reference to the progression of entropy.

Now, on a practical level, if some board member here sent reiki to the past with the result of saving an organ that had been surgically removed some years ago, then that would be at least suggestive, if not conclusive. So . . . has anyone done that? Sent reiki into the past, with the result that you or another recipient now has an organ that had been taken out previously? (That could set up the sort of temporal paradoxes of science fiction.)

Bruce

Milarepa wrote:

Pandora wrote:Wayne, with respect, I don't think I'm confused. I saw very clearly the point I was trying to make - it was as if it was given to me by someone with more experience than I have!

The concept of "sum over histories" is one which I particularly like. It's Richard Feynman's explanation for what we experience as reality. In some versions of the quantum universe, everything actually happens (think Schrodinger's Cat) at the same time. What we experience as reality is the "sum over history" of each event - the sum total of experience, if you like.

Yes, i'm familiar briefly with this stuff, i've also just posted a youtube video earlier which is the same vein.

So i can fully understand what you're saying to me. Ok, we got all these different versions, i'll call them different 'nows'. So, the summation is what we experience as reality. I get this. Tell me then, how we have that, and we have a 'past' & a 'future', to start with, .

If i can get that clear, help me understand how it happens that we can change one of these 'nows' (presuming we are changing only one), and that's so powerful it brings change in the summation, which is in fact changing all?

That's a pretty powerful concept. And maybe most importantly, if it's changing all aspects of now, and changing reality in some way, does one excatly know the possible ramifications of doing such a thing?

Is reality changed just for us, for our 'issue'? Or does the pebble make bigger ripples in the pond? You'r esurely aware, even the thoughts we have for each other affects many others..

That's a fair bit of questions i have there, hehe, but if you can find the time, i feel i'll better be able to understand what's being suggested. You seem to know a fair bit about stuff i'm also interested in, so i hope you'll appreciate it's not enough for any of us to make a blanket statement, without expanding, if asked, .

Pandora wrote:
I would also point out that nobody has the monopoly on truth, especially not in a forum like this. So saying that someone is "confused" is like claiming that you are not, but you can see someone else's confusion.

I won't disagree with this. Though it was you who felt able to first point out i was confused about what i was talking about, so at least grant me the same luxury, if i also feel it applies?

Science is beginning to be quite capable at explaining things that spirituality has been saying for 1000's of years, which is why i used it here. There was never confusion of concepts. Fusion of many concepts would be more apt.

Take care
Wayne

Well I thought I said you were confusing two concepts, whereas you said I was confused. The first is pointing out something in a discussion, the second is an ad hominem argument, which is what my ex would call "dirty bar-room play"!

I don't disagree about science saying things which metaphysics has been saying for centuries. However, there is a different viewpoint which I'd like to put in the mix here.

All our current theories about "reality", "the physical world", are theories which best fit the current observations. This means that they can and will be different in years to come. There is every possibility that Newtonian physics, relativity and quantum physics are wrong! In our search for the truth, the closer we get the farther away we find ourselves.

Given that, the only valid reality is that which we experience: that which is "between the ears" as it were.

So what does Reiki do, if it is sent to the past? Does it work on the totality of our experience? It might not matter whether Reiki works on a particular "history" which means a different "sum" is experienced, in this model. What is changing is our experience of reality. Now how it does that may well be in the realms of physics - altering brain chemistry, altering the arrangements of neurons, whatever - but it does change our perception of what has happened at a very basic level. And changing that at an atomic level will change the conformation of our bodies to remove or reduce physical symptoms in the "now".

Pandora wrote:

Well I thought I said you were confusing two concepts, whereas you said I was confused. The first is pointing out something in a discussion, the second is an ad hominem argument, which is what my ex would call "dirty bar-room play"!

I feel i'm talking in semantics, which is what i havn't done for a while, hehe. . Yeah you said it was i that was confusing two concepts. Concepts i said? Yes.

I then said you were confused. In something you said? Yes, it was in response to a direct quote of yours i used, about one particular portion of your text.

I can't see much difference in what we exchanged. If i've offended you, i apologise completely, .

Pandora wrote:
So what does Reiki do, if it is sent to the past? Does it work on the totality of our experience? It might not matter whether Reiki works on a particular "history" which means a different "sum" is experienced, in this model. What is changing is our experience of reality. Now how it does that may well be in the realms of physics - altering brain chemistry, altering the arrangements of neurons, whatever - but it does change our perception of what has happened at a very basic level. And changing that at an atomic level will change the conformation of our bodies to remove or reduce physical symptoms in the "now".

i can appreciate what you're saying here. I feel that the complete picture isn't being adressed.

I'm still not seeing how there's a past & future. You're saying the 'sum'. This is implying there's a collective group of something. Are you saying there's a collective group of past, present, future, that forms the 'sum'? Which is 'now' reality? What exactly is the 'sum' consisting of? and why would the past & future, be a collective part of now?

i'm not disputing 'time' exists, only in the way folks view it. And when it's said 'past' & 'future' this isn't accurate, imo.

My major point i need to understand is how one can think they can change the past in something to do with themselves, and not realise, in doing so, they would in fact also, quite possibly, change the past in immeasurable other ways for many others. One small act, one happening, does really have ramifications for many others. This is a major flaw in the thinking, i'm not saying you're flawed, hehe, but generally, it's at this point i don't think folks think the theroy through.

I find it hard to even think about the idea of myself, having the ability to change the past, knowing the very little i do about theoretical physics, and not be quite apprhensive about the way my actions might change others current reality. I'll be honest Chris, it upsets me, not angry, but afraid, so i hope i'd be wrong with this. .

Here's an excerpt from a paper entitled 'Journal of Theoretics'. It actually explains what's been happening in this thread a lot, (i refer you to your quote about typing 'h' in which i explained that was psychological time). That is, saying physical time is somehow reversible, because we view 'psychological time' as easily reversible...

In the universe, the passing of physical time cannot be clearly perceived as matter and space; one can perceive only irreversible physical, chemical, and biological changes (hereinafter referred to as "change") in cosmic space. On the basis of elementary perception (sight) one can conclude that physical time exists only as a stream of change that runs through cosmic space [1]. The terms "physical time" and "change" describe the same phenomenon. Physical time is irreversible. Change A transforms into change B, B transforms into C and so on. When B is in existence A does not exist anymore, when C is in existence B does not exist anymore.
The question arises: Why is it that irreversible physical time is experienced as past, present and future? The answer is obtained by analysing the scientific way of experiencing. The eyes perceive a stream of irreversible change. Once elaborated by the mind, the stream of change is experienced chronologically through psychological time that is a part of the human mind. By observing the continuous stream of irreversible physical change humans have developed psychological time through which we
experience the universe. Psychological time is reversible. One can go back into past. This creates an idea that physical time also has a past, but this is not so....

Experiment
Let's look at the relationship between physical and psychological time by carrying out an experiment. Take a pen and move it from the left side of the table to the right. You can perceive only the movement of the pen in space, but you experience that the pen has also moved through time. How come? Perception passes first through psychological time and then the experience occurs. That's why you experience the movement of the pen in time. But on the basis of elementary perception (sight) one can only state that the pen has changed position in space.

Discussion
It is not that change happens in physical time, change itself is physical time. We can measure with clocks the duration and speed of change. Experiments with high precision clocks confirm that change runs slower in the parts of universal space where the gravitational field is stronger. The speed of clocks near the sea in Venice is slower than on the mountain Monte Rosa, because gravity is stronger near sea level [3].
Regarding General Relativity this means that with increasing of the roundness of the space the speed of change is getting slower. Regarding Special Relativity this means that in inertial system that moves fast the speed of change is slower than in inertial system that moves with less speed. The twin in a fast spaceship is growing old slower than his twin brother in a spaceship that travels with less speed.
The understanding of physical time has changed over the ages. For ancient Greeks, Indians, and Mayans, time was considered a cyclic phenomenon; time moving in circles, with no beginning and no end. When Judaeo-Christian civilization arose in Europe, another understanding of time became prominent - time going forward in a straight line. According to this civilization, time has its beginning with God’s creation of the universe and will have its end with the Last Judgement. In Newtonian physics, physical time is an independent quantity (absolute time), running uniformly throughout the entire cosmic space (absolute space). In the General Theory of Relativity, time is no more an independent physical quantity - it is linked with space in four-dimensional space-time. According to this understanding time as a physical reality exists only as a stream of change in space.

Source: http://www.journaloftheoretics.com/Articles/6-3/S.pdf

thanks for taking the time to get back to me, i appreciate it, .

Take care
Wayne