Stages of Meditation-where do you belong ?

hi Friends

something about meditation !!

meditation is a key to perception.. perception that evolves to consciousness and super-consciousness without losing its own procedural identity... everyone who has a drive to travel spiritual path, must have been doing meditation...


there is a great variety of meditation... the focal object of the meditation might be a pysical object and it also may be a feeling of sight, sound, smell, taste, etc. related to a physical object... we may meditate feelings without taking physical objects into to prime focus... going onwards, we may meditate on concepts that dont involve our physical world... as we evolve, we may slip into a meditation where we are not meditating at all rather we experience the meaning of 'being', the moment of stillness (not emptiness)...


i have to share today some excerpts from meditation aspects discussed by Swami J

(with some modifications for brevity/making the article more reiki-related)
===========================================================================
Five Universal Stages of Meditation
by Swami Jnaneshvara Bharati
SwamiJ.com

Whatever Gross Object is chosen for meditation (visualized images, sensation, breath, energy, mantra, or attitudes, etc.), the process moves inward through stages (Gross, Subtle, Bliss, I-ness, Objectless). All methods of meditation, of all schools, traditions, teachers, lineages, religions, or paths are experienced in one or more of the stages described below. This is a universal framework for deepening meditation, and is extremely useful to understand, in that it allows you to see where you stand, and where you are going.

Gross Level Meditation
======================
There are numerous gross level objects on which one can concentrate for meditation, including physical objects or their mental forms, attitudes, and a variety of thought processes. Some schools of meditation base their practice on only one of these objects. In Yoga Meditation, these are very important practices, but are seen as preliminary preparation for the subtler practices.

examples :

- Physical sensation Chakras Visualizations
- Mantra Friendliness Compassion
- Breath Benevolence Acceptance
- Purity of mind Luminosity Thought streams
- Energy Subtle senses Anything pleasing

reiki examples :

- meditation on symbols (CKR for earth chi, and SHK for heavenly chi, under chinese influence)
- meditation on CKR for cleansing the room, place of worship, etc.
- meditation of energy cascading from se-hei-ki placed in air above head
- meditation on reiki entering the body through crown
- meditation of energy being condensed in dantien


Subtle Level Meditation
=======================
Beyond the gross objects of meditation above, there are subtle level objects. Because these subtle objects are either the building blocks of the gross objects, or are the mental instruments of cognition, there are far fewer subtle objects. For example, all of the objects with shape and form are built of earth, water, fire, air, and space. All of the perceptions and attitudes are experienced by the sensing instruments, which now are themselves objects of meditation and inquiry.

examples :

- Elements of earth, water, fire, air, and space
- The subtle energy flows of the vayus and pranas
- The subtle senses (indriyas) are objects of meditation
- The four functions of mind, as objects of meditation
- The subtler essence of mantra, beyond the syllables

reiki examples :

- Meditation of the sounds of kotodama without uttering them
- Meditation on connection with Usui Sensei
- Meditation on feeling reiki in the flow of blood
- Meditation on reiki diethering/emanating from open eyes, from breath, from the entire body


Bliss Level Meditation
======================
When attention goes beyond the gross and subtle levels of meditation, these recede into the background, as one is aware of the underlying bliss, a reality far subtler than mere emotion. In this still subtler experience, there is a simplicity, in that the multiplicity has been replaced by the awareness of bliss.



reiki examples :

- Meditation of 'being' reiki

I-ness Level Meditation
=======================
Beyond all three of the above levels (gross, subtle, and bliss), there is meditation on I-ness itself. This is not an ego level, along with the many personality traits, wants, wishes, images, or forms. Rather, it is meditation on individuality itself, untainted by all of those more surface level experiences. Though very deep, it has a simplicity in that it is a single I-ness, rather than a diversity of choices of gross or subtle objects.

reiki examples :
- meditation on gratitude, compassion and love


Objectless Level Meditation
===========================
All of the four stages above have an object on which attention is focused. Thus, they are called samprajnata, which means with support. Beyond all of these levels comes objectless attention, which is without support, and is called asamprajnata. It is not merely empty-mindedness, but as a vast stillness that is indescribable to the typical level of waking state mind.

reiki examples :

- melting of identities, boundaries, merger in universal mind, super-consciousness


PERSONAL NOTES
===============

(1)...............as per my observation, the stages described above by Swami J are in step-wise fashion, and follow a heirarchical way... we cannot jumpt to subtle level meditation without properly experiencing the gross level meditation...


(2)...............generally speaking, it is better to have some training on gazing and concentration exercises involving the fixation of sight/visual.... for example, before meditating on symbols, it may be a good thought to gaze on the symbol, focus the concentration for some months before embarking upon a mental imagery of symbols... however, in some yoga texts, the exercise of candle gazing is described as a mixture of gazing and visualization(i.e., we gaze on candle for five minutes, then close eyes, and try to visualize what we have been gazing on, then open the eyes and gaze for next five minutes, and so on)...


(3)..............meditation produces the feeling of being asleep and seeing dreams, but it is technically and actually exactly opposite to it... in order to save ourselves from drifting into sleep while meditating, it is best advised that dont assume a posture of sleep (like lying down in bed, or too comfy posture)...


(4)..............allow yourself to tactfully deal with internal resistance we acquire as a natural result of starting these exercises... steady, and consistent, is the key to next step always


GENERAL REQUEST
================

as we have very seasoned and experienced people onboard, i request everyone of you to give feedback on how you meditate and what you feel you belong with which stage of meditation outlined above


cheers and love

take care



salman

As requested:

My experience of meditation is that all 5 stages are available to everyone at any time, and that it is beneficial to do whatever stage you feel you need to. I would therefore question calling them "stages" as this implies that once you have reached 5 you have arrived and have no need to go back to stage 1 at any time.

Hi Salman!

My main meditation practice tends to be a mix of some of the gross and subtle techniques you mention, as part of hatsurei ho but often I find I have drifted away in the bliss or I-ness levels and very occasionally a brief experience of losing myself completely in the objectless state.

Best wishes to you for the New Year, by the way!

Pandora wrote:As requested:

My experience of meditation is that all 5 stages are available to everyone at any time, and that it is beneficial to do whatever stage you feel you need to. I would therefore question calling them "stages" as this implies that once you have reached 5 you have arrived and have no need to go back to stage 1 at any time.

Chris thanks for the share

so far, what i have felt is that the stages so-named, and so-called, as the article discusses refer to, are basically travel of somebody towards the deepening of meditation experience, and that does not happen over days, rather over months and years... so practically, i will still 'stick' to the stages concept disussed by Swami J, since it more easily fits well with mine...

but, of course, i endavour to say that there are no 'rules' in spiritual travel

as long as we are on the path, we merit all the variations


take care

salman

Lambs-Wool wrote:

Pandora wrote:As requested:

My experience of meditation is that all 5 stages are available to everyone at any time, and that it is beneficial to do whatever stage you feel you need to. I would therefore question calling them "stages" as this implies that once you have reached 5 you have arrived and have no need to go back to stage 1 at any time.

Chris thanks for the share

so far, what i have felt is that the stages so-named, and so-called, as the article discusses refer to, are basically travel of somebody towards the deepening of meditation experience, and that does not happen over days, rather over months and years... so practically, i will still 'stick' to the stages concept disussed by Swami J, since it more easily fits well with mine...

but, of course, i endavour to say that there are no 'rules' in spiritual travel

as long as we are on the path, we merit all the variations


take care

salman

Interesting discussion. My meditation almost always deals with Shamanic stuff, so I won't go into too much detail about that. But, just sitting with Reiki to facilitate a session for someone else is a form of meditation, I feel.

I also feel, that until you reach the ability to do the objectless stage, that using different stages of meditation becomes important depending on your intent behind the meditation.

In shamanic work, you may be doing a journey (a form of meditation) with a particular intent behind the information you are looking for. It may be important to focus on visualizations of one sort or another. This would probably be along the lines of the Gross or Subtle meditations.

But there is also shamanic work that requires the i-ness stage as well.

Once you've reached the objectless stage, I feel all other stages are available without having to resort back to specific intent to meditate at that stage's modality.

Colin wrote:Hi Salman!

My main meditation practice tends to be a mix of some of the gross and subtle techniques you mention, as part of hatsurei ho but often I find I have drifted away in the bliss or I-ness levels and very occasionally a brief experience of losing myself completely in the objectless state.

Best wishes to you for the New Year, by the way!

thanks Colin a very happy n safe new year for the entire planet, i pray!


yes, this mix is what i see as deepening of the experience...

well, while meditation is itself an experience, it is a key to other experiences too.. like OBE, astral projection, etc.

what i have to ask specifically here Colin is that when you feel the meditation in objectless state, do you feel time as you would ordinarily in the meditation.... i mean, isnt that time flies during such state...

i had only once such experience in my whole life... and almost 3 and a half hours just flew off like some minutes would go... (i dobut if i was asleep in this period ?? )


take care bro



salman

Lambs-Wool wrote:what i have to ask specifically here Colin is that when you feel the meditation in objectless state, do you feel time as you would ordinarily in the meditation.... i mean, isnt that time flies during such state...

i had only once such experience in my whole life... and almost 3 and a half hours just flew off like some minutes would go... (i dobut if i was asleep in this period ?? )


take care bro



salman

Well, I've never "lost" that amount of time before but although my periods of meditation are fairly standard in length some pass much quicker than others, while others seem to last much longer than the actual time.

I like simplicity in everything
I do. After my healing journey I
join a meditation center that
taught Vipassana. Later I was
introduced to Sri Chinmoy (1931-2007)
I liked his style of using an
object to concentrate on. If we
concentrate on the petals of a flower
or the flicker of a candle flame at
that moment nothing else exists in the
entire world but us and the petal or the
flame.The mind becomes calm and quite no
thoughts .............

Question: What do you mean when you talk about a mental path versus the path of the heart?

Sri Chinmoy: The difference is quite noticeable. When we live in the heart, with the heart and for the heart, we always feel we can accept the world and become part and parcel of the suffering world. But when we are in the mind, we start criticising others and thinking that we are perfect. If I remain in the mind, I will see you as imperfect and myself as perfect. But if I live in the heart, then I will feel that what you have and what you are I have to claim as my own, very own. If we remain in the heart, we become one. Your imperfections I must accept as my own imperfections. And if you also live in the heart, you will take my imperfections as your own imperfections. Then if you are happy because you have done something great, I will feel that it is I who have done it and vice-versa.

But when we are in the mind, we are constantly doubting others. We cannot accept others’ joy as our own. Immediately, jealousy, insecurity and impurity attack us. If I am in the heart, then immediately I feel that you are God’s creation. We have to love each other, we have to become one, inseparably one. In this way we can solve all our problems. Otherwise, if I start doubting you, whether you are a good person or not, then this mental argument never ends.

The feeling of oneness inside the heart, once it starts, never ends. Once we enter into the river, we see that the river is flowing into the ocean and finally it becomes the ocean itself. But if the river does not flow, it becomes a stagnant pool. The mind is always trying to see the negative qualities of others. Whose mind is happy when it sees somebody else achieving something glorious? Nobody’s. But if you live in the heart, you will act like a child. A child is so happy when his father achieves something and the father is so happy when his child achieves something. So the simple way is to follow the path of the heart.
Excerpt from Sri Chinmoy Answers, Part 18 by Sri Chinmoy.

Pandora wrote:As requested:

My experience of meditation is that all 5 stages are available to everyone at any time, and that it is beneficial to do whatever stage you feel you need to. I would therefore question calling them "stages" as this implies that once you have reached 5 you have arrived and have no need to go back to stage 1 at any time.

My experience of meditation is that all 5 stages are available to everyone at any time.

I entirely agree.

I don't think one has to have devoted a lifetime to spiritual practice in order to have a profound experience of spiritual enlightenment we are all inately divine, moments of enlightenment can happen to anyone at anytime..

I think the idea of stages is nonsense...

Thaak wrote:
Interesting discussion. My meditation almost always deals with Shamanic stuff, so I won't go into too much detail about that. But, just sitting with Reiki to facilitate a session for someone else is a form of meditation, I feel.

yes, if we subtract the meditative element from our reiki sessions, we mostly lose the 'flavour' too

like shamanism, in muslim mystism too, there's been a lot said and practiced in the area of meditation...but since it specifically deals with practices per a religious path, we cannot import bits and pieces of those areas for general discussion here..

Thaak wrote:
I also feel, that until you reach the ability to do the objectless stage, that using different stages of meditation becomes important depending on your intent behind the meditation.

the 'intent' behind meditation is a noteable phrase dear Andy while many people do meditate with an 'intent' to achieve some areas, they are using meditation as means to achieve something...

Thaak wrote:
In shamanic work, you may be doing a journey (a form of meditation) with a particular intent behind the information you are looking for. It may be important to focus on visualizations of one sort or another. This would probably be along the lines of the Gross or Subtle meditations.

yes meditation often times changes its species from a concentration experience to a travel of the unknown.. and here we have to be specifically knowledgable about so-called 'stages' of meditation...

Thaak wrote:
But there is also shamanic work that requires the i-ness stage as well.

Once you've reached the objectless stage, I feel all other stages are available without having to resort back to specific intent to meditate at that stage's modality.

nicely summed up... i second!



take care

salman

chi_solas wrote:I like simplicity in everything
I do. After my healing journey I
join a meditation center that
taught Vipassana. Later I was
introduced to Sri Chinmoy (1931-2007)
I liked his style of using an
object to concentrate on. If we
concentrate on the petals of a flower
or the flicker of a candle flame at
that moment nothing else exists in the
entire world but us and the petal or the
flame.The mind becomes calm and quite no
thoughts

thanks for the share !


i dont know specifically about Sri Chinmoy, but i do second what you have said about flicker of candle and petals of rose...

however, a question that were you referring about contration through gazing or concentration through meditation ?

in classical exercises of hypnotism, we 'gaze' on a dot, and widen its circumference till all the black goes white... similarly, in self-cultural training courses, we gaze on candle flame untill the boundaries of flame diffuse and we see nothing but bright, hot lihgt, all around us, and we start feeling the nourishment from its energetic essence... here, we achieve something called 'one-minded' ness where there are no thoughts, whatsoever!


but this specifically is different from meditative spells ( i personally feel)! in gazing, stillness and one-minded ness is the final objective, whereas in meditation, the stillness is the 'start' of a travel... and this travel is quite very 'un-intended'.... it takes momentum of its own when once started...

take care

salman

Shakti ~ Rising wrote:

Pandora wrote:As requested:

My experience of meditation is that all 5 stages are available to everyone at any time, and that it is beneficial to do whatever stage you feel you need to. I would therefore question calling them "stages" as this implies that once you have reached 5 you have arrived and have no need to go back to stage 1 at any time.

My experience of meditation is that all 5 stages are available to everyone at any time.

I entirely agree.

I don't think one has to have devoted a lifetime to spiritual practice in order to have a profound experience of spiritual enlightenment we are all inately divine, moments of enlightenment can happen to anyone at anytime..

I think the idea of stages is nonsense...

thanks for the feedback

well, stages, as i feel that stuff, is the gradual, steady development of one's mental and spiritual faculties in the discipline we call 'meditation'...

viewed from an corner, we do meditate continously even our day to day life... if, i m making shave across a mirror, for example, my mind is actively thinking about the priorties of office work i have to set, that i have to settle once i finish up and reach there...

to meditate is little different from mere thinking... in thinking we have to sail smooth along cross-association of thoughts while in meditation we have to control that very element...

what you have referred as 'nonsense' as about the concept of stages of concentration, you must be having quite good grounds about that, and i respect that, but talking generally, i pesonally feel that we can 'attempt' the stage of concentration called 'stillness' or 'i-ness' but cannot 'experience' it unless we have had been through our gross-level experiences and training...

but of course, generalizations are easy to set in metaphysical areas, but very very difficult to endorse...


take care

salman

Shakti ~ Rising wrote: I don't think one has to have devoted a lifetime to spiritual practice in order to have a profound experience of spiritual enlightenment we are all inately divine, moments of enlightenment can happen to anyone at anytime..

briefly, i m in full agreement with later part of the quoted version, but have reservations about the first

take care

salman

I understand your view point lambswool...

as a child I had a couple of out of body experiences...and quite a lot of other 'spiritual' experiences......this was all very very naturual as a child and not due to a lifetime of spiritual practice, as children we are so open and sensitive to the divine in everything its only as we grow and become socially/materially/religioiusly and all the other 'lys'conditioned, that we close up...

when my third child was born I used to lay on the sofa with him while he sucked on his bottle and curled my hair round his finger....my hair was like a comfort blanket! ahaha.....anyway when we used to lay there together I felt like I was curled up with a bundle of pure love, pure divine energy.......it was an incredible feeling.....

Lovely share shakti rising (sorry i dont know your name)

yes, while we grow up, we close ourselves up with so many "....lities" and "...lyies" and this is all natural, as natural is our birth in the first instance...

the spiritual travel is, viewed in a way, an effort to find that 'lost' openeness... its a travel to simplicity, travel to liberation from norms, terms, definitions, rhetoric, salogans, etc. etc.... a travel to our core self!

kids and children are always so pure that they can latch into movements of universe sometimes... and some animals like dog, horses, etc. also belong to that genere...

simple is beautiful -- a gospel truth, which we hear always, but fathom not always


take care

salman

I like that last line and my name is sharon

thanks dear Sharon

may you have love, blessings and safe sailing ahead!

take care

salman

dear Lambs-Wool,

again inshort,
I don't knew which stage i am in meditation but now days i am watching different-2 planets lot more but which stage it is i don't knew and how many will come still i don't knew i just sit and forget everything and when i opened i found it is around one hours but my mind is very relax and i am very silence and now days i feel i get the taste of mediation. I enjoyed it and ready whenever i have time.




thanks and love
vj

dear Vijay

thanks for feedback!

infact the categorization of stages of meditation is a thought that should (or should not) be considered only after the meditative spell is over....and furthermore the categorization (if there is any) is always incremental and latent... and the boundaries are so easily diffused

lovely share about your meditative experiences... the planets and worlds we see in meditation are most likely the figment or our own imagination, since it is indeed a very masterful act to correctly distinguish meditative revelation from the results of our always fertile imagination....

i dont know, but as you have said, you feel lost, and feel relaxed, all is going good i suppose

take care bro

salman

dear Lambs-Wool
thanks for feedback!

infact the categorization of stages of meditation is a thought that should (or should not) be considered only after the meditative spell is over....and furthermore the categorization (if there is any) is always incremental and latent... and the boundaries are so easily diffused

lovely share about your meditative experiences... the planets and worlds we see in meditation are most likely the figment or our own imagination, since it is indeed a very masterful act to correctly distinguish meditative revelation from the results of our always fertile imagination....

i dont know, but as you have said, you feel lost, and feel relaxed, all is going good i suppose


i am very thankful to your advice i will write little detail on this topic very soon but short of time i write in brief.




Thanks and love

vj

Lambs-Wool wrote:thanks dear Sharon

may you have love, blessings and safe sailing ahead!

take care

salman

ship ahoy!!

just had a rather lovely meditative experience in my tai chi class...

we were doing 'djang djong'...I don't think I've said that right......its similar to the horse stance, and i usually find this practice to be like slow torture!!! I hate it and my legs kill!!...but today i went up into the light...the pain ceased even though my legs were still shaking( ahahah) the tears streamed with joy......I couldn't stop smiling...lovely!!

Shakti ~ Rising wrote:just had a rather lovely meditative experience in my tai chi class...

we were doing 'djang djong'...I don't think I've said that right......its similar to the horse stance, and i usually find this practice to be like slow torture!!! I hate it and my legs kill!!...but today i went up into the light...the pain ceased even though my legs were still shaking( ahahah) the tears streamed with joy......I couldn't stop smiling...lovely!!

Nice one, Sharon - thanks for sharing!

Shakti ~ Rising wrote:just had a rather lovely meditative experience in my tai chi class...

we were doing 'djang djong'...I don't think I've said that right......its similar to the horse stance, and i usually find this practice to be like slow torture!!! I hate it and my legs kill!!...but today i went up into the light...the pain ceased even though my legs were still shaking( ahahah) the tears streamed with joy......I couldn't stop smiling...lovely!!

lovely share Sharon - thanks

just curious to know whether you are taught about controlling the movement of chi inside the body, in the said course ?

take care

salman

a question for all ! please give your feedback


its been these days that when i meditate, especially if latenight before sleeping or early in the morning before sunrise, i feel i m asleep during meditation... time just flies, and i sorta start travelling like we do in dreams...


i m quite afraid that i actually slip into sleep during that while what you say, may be the possiblities ??

take care

salman

Lambs-Wool wrote:a question for all ! please give your feedback


its been these days that when i meditate, especially if latenight before sleeping or early in the morning before sunrise, i feel i m asleep during meditation... time just flies, and i sorta start travelling like we do in dreams...


i m quite afraid that i actually slip into sleep during that while what you say, may be the possiblities ??

take care

salman

If we go deep enough, we naturally don't focus on anything time related, so that illusion falls away, upon resuming noraml consciousness it may seem we lost track of time, when in fact we became aware there is no time!

If you do fall asleep, upon re-awakening, you can simply resume practice if it';s possible. Most definitely don't let yourself judge yourself if you keep falling asleep, i say this cause you sai 'i'm quite afraid..'.

Here's some practible help form someone well known....

http://www.srichinmoy.org/spirituality/concentration_meditation_contemplation/meditation/am_i_meditating_well/question_5