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    Toma
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    esoteric buddhist practices

    Post by Toma on Wed Feb 24, 2010 11:09 pm

    Hello Wayne,

    In the thread on Steve Murray DVD Reiki attunements you said

    This goes to what a Reiki initiaton is. The initiations are from esoteric buddhist practices, and are passed down in person, transfering consciousness/ability that way.

    could you please talk a little about just what is esoteric buddhist practice.

    Taggart King and also the Steines have said that Reiju is a practice from esoteric buddhism
    And usually when esoteric buddhism is mentioned they mention shugendo in the same sentence

    Is this claimed source of Reiju a fact or just one of the many unsupported guesses people keep making about elements of Reiki? And what about the reiki initiations then?

    Also what is it that makes esoteric buddhism different from, well, ordinary Buddhism, and from the shugendo?

    Thanks
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    Milarepa
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    Re: esoteric buddhist practices

    Post by Milarepa on Wed Feb 24, 2010 11:28 pm

    Hiya Toma,


    Toma wrote:Hello Wayne,

    In the thread on Steve Murray DVD Reiki attunements you said

    This goes to what a Reiki initiaton is. The initiations are from esoteric buddhist practices, and are passed down in person, transfering consciousness/ability that way.

    could you please talk a little about just what is esoteric buddhist practice.

    I'll do my best, Smile.

    Toma wrote:
    Taggart King and also the Steines have said that Reiju is a practice from esoteric buddhism
    And usually when esoteric buddhism is mentioned they mention shugendo in the same sentence

    Is this claimed source of Reiju a fact or just one of the many unsupported guesses people keep making about elements of Reiki? And what about the reiki initiations then?

    Reiju, isn't a fact, imo. Cause, imo, the Hikkei isn't a fact.

    The initiations, as in the Denju type (using symbols) there's more to say that process is fact (which process exactly is another matter, hehe). It's a fact Usui sensei's student taught it in a system that was clearly identified as Usui sensei's (indicating no changes to that system).


    Toma wrote:
    Also what is it that makes esoteric buddhism different from, well, ordinary Buddhism, and from the shugendo?

    Thanks

    i'm glad you've asked this, Smile. ordinary Buddhism is more open about it's teachings, esoteric buddhism is more secret, known to the initiated usually. You're right asking about Shugendo, cause esoteric buddhism in Japan can imply Shingon, but also Tendai. What i'd meant was the universal meaning, not allying esoteric buddhism to any school. Reason why i said esoteric buddhism is cause there's concepts in Reiki that are buddhist but aren't open. This doesn't mean that Reiki is buddhist, or has it's roots in buddhism either. Personally, i still feel Reiki has it's roots in many religions, from Usui sensei.

    The transferring of consciousness during initiations is used in Japanese esoteric buddhism though.

    Warmest wishes
    Wayne


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    Re: esoteric buddhist practices

    Post by Toma on Thu Feb 25, 2010 2:06 am

    Arrh, my internet conection closed and I just lost my post!

    Hello Wayne
    Milarepa wrote:

    Reiju, isn't a fact, imo. Cause, imo, the Hikkei isn't a fact.

    Sorry, I don't get the significance. Does it mention reiju in the hikkie?
    I was asking if you knew if what Taggart King and the Steines said about reiju being a practice in esoteric Buddhism was a fact

    Milarepa wrote:
    i'm glad you've asked this, Smile. ordinary Buddhism is more open about it's teachings, esoteric buddhism is more secret, known to the initiated usually.

    Okay I get that there are secret teachings only given to the initiated, but generally what makes esoteric buddhism different from the ordinary day to day form of buddhism?
    Milarepa wrote:
    You're right asking about Shugendo, cause esoteric buddhism in Japan can imply Shingon, but also Tendai. What i'd meant was the universal meaning, not allying esoteric buddhism to any school.

    So how does the shugendo differ from esoteric buddhism (universal meaning) generally?
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    Re: esoteric buddhist practices

    Post by EzriReiki on Thu Feb 25, 2010 3:18 am

    Toma wrote:
    I was asking if you knew if what Taggart King and the Steines said about reiju being a practice in esoteric Buddhism was a fact

    Toma, you mentioned Taggart King.
    I remember Taggart from an old forum called Grassroots Reiki that was active in the early noughties and he was probably the first person I heard mention connections between reiki and Tendai buddhism. I'm sure he said reiju was a Tendai ritual. That always stuck in my mind

    Then a few years ago I was at a conference on healing in Antwerp, and had the opportunity to grab some time with one of the speakers, a Japanese Buddhist Monk of the Tendai sect. He was an ajari, a senior monk who teaches others and leads them through the esoteric rituals and initiations.
    I wanted to ask him about Reiki and the connections between reiju and Tendai Buddhism Taggart had mentioned, and it seems I was only one of many people, European and Japanese, who had asked him about this. In fact he had leant much about Reiki as a result of this repeated questioning, and he was familiar with the theories going round at the time. Yet while he was pleased that people were taking an interest in Tendai Buddhism (which he said was not so popular as it used to be) he was quite adamant that the reiju practice taught by the Japanese Reiki people was nothing to do with the esoteric teachings of Tendai which he called to as Taimitzu (?). He also said that the initiations we use in Usui Shiki Ryoho were not the same as, nor did they have anything like the same purpose, as initiations used in Taimitzu. And he even preempted my other questions I had on the theory about Reiki having a link to the Shugendo ascetics. Many people had also asked him about this. He made it clear he was speaking about Tendai-affiliated Shugendo which was called Honzanha [there are other forms of shugendo affiliated with other schools of Buddhism] and said that our Reiki initiations and the reiju practice were likewise not found in Honzanha Shugendo.


    Ezri


    Last edited by EzriReiki on Thu Feb 25, 2010 6:28 am; edited 1 time in total
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    Re: esoteric buddhist practices

    Post by Milarepa on Thu Feb 25, 2010 3:44 am

    Toma wrote:Arrh, my internet conection closed and I just lost my post!

    Hello Wayne
    Milarepa wrote:

    Reiju, isn't a fact, imo. Cause, imo, the Hikkei isn't a fact.

    Sorry, I don't get the significance. Does it mention reiju in the hikkie?
    I was asking if you knew if what Taggart King and the Steines said about reiju being a practice in esoteric Buddhism was a fact

    I think you already know what it says about Reiju in the Hikkei, Smile, and imo this is where folks get the idea.

    Reiju is sharing a spiritual gift, in the exact meaning of the word, so of course in Japanese buddhism there is this. I'm leanring Kuji-in, which is Japanese, from Buddhism, and there's transfer of cnosciousness in it, in the initiations, this cane be said to be Reiju, a spiritual gift.

    But no, i don't know what they say to be fact. I had some training by Taggart so know what he says, and i spoke with Brownen steines once about what i see as inaccurately to heavy a correlation with Reiki & buddhism. Though i respect these folks and they're free to teach what they want of course.

    Toma wrote:
    Milarepa wrote:
    i'm glad you've asked this, Smile. ordinary Buddhism is more open about it's teachings, esoteric buddhism is more secret, known to the initiated usually.

    Okay I get that there are secret teachings only given to the initiated, but generally what makes esoteric buddhism different from the ordinary day to day form of buddhism?

    esoteric means secret or hidden. As to the practices well, that's quite comprehensive and varies greatly from school to school.


    Toma wrote:
    Milarepa wrote:
    You're right asking about Shugendo, cause esoteric buddhism in Japan can imply Shingon, but also Tendai. What i'd meant was the universal meaning, not allying esoteric buddhism to any school.

    So how does the shugendo differ from esoteric buddhism (universal meaning) generally?

    It's of course a part of general esoteric buddhism. Like i said, the reason why i use it generally is cause i won't ally Reiki with any Buddhist school, but that there's not so obvious meanings in the initiation.

    EzriReiki wrote:
    Toma, you mentioned Taggart King.
    I remember Taggart from an old forum called Grassroots Reiki that was active in the early noughties and he was probably the first person I heard mention connections between reiki and Tendai buddhism. I'm sure he said reiju was a Tendai ritual. That always stuck in my mind

    This is cause Taggart was/is part of the folks who follow Chris Marsh, and Chris is Tendai. Steines use his info also.

    EzriReiki wrote:
    I wanted to ask him about Reiki and the connections between reiju and Tendai Buddhism Taggart had mentioned, and it seems I was only one of many people, European and Japanese, who had asked him about this. In fact he had leant much about Reiki as a result of this repeated questioning, and he was familiar with the theories going round at the time. Yet while he was pleased that people were taking an interest in Tendai Buddhism (which he said was not so popular as it used to be) he was quite adamant that the reiju practice taught by the Japanese Reiki people was nothing to do with the esoteric teachings of Tendai which he called to as Taimitzu (?). He also said that the initiations we use in Usui Shiki Ryoho were not the same as, nor did they have anything like the same purpose, as initiations used in Taimitzu.

    The Denju initiaitons in which symbols are used, most certainly has buddhist concepts in them, it's highl;y general buddhist concepts, not linked ot any school (which is why i never linked it in my earlier posts).

    Quite possibly what the Tendai guy was saying was that the iniations in Usui Shiki Ryoho (remember it's highly likely his encounter with that style would be healing, blah, blah, blah) were definitely not what Tendai is concerned with cause he saw Reiki as healing. However, imo, the purpose of the initiaitons in Usui Shiki Ryoho is a purely spiritual one, which also incidentally brings healing. I can't speka of his school, but in Japanese buddhism there's many forms of transsfer of consciousness/initiations for spiritual reasons. In fact, in Kuji-in (part of Japanese esoteric buddhism) some Kuji-in will make you doubly strong, some will also make you invisible. Now they can be used for this, but are also taught as spiritual practices as they also do more obvious spiritual things. Depending on the Tendai's encounter with Reiki will depend on whether he sees Reiki as a spiritual path or a healing modaility. With the latter prob not having as much in common in Tendai as the former.

    Warmest wishes
    Wayne

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    Re: esoteric buddhist practices

    Post by Colin on Thu Feb 25, 2010 4:15 am

    Milarepa wrote:

    I think you already know what it says about Reiju in the Hikkei, Smile, and imo this is where folks get the idea.

    Err...Wayne! It doesn't mention Reiju at all in my copy of the Hikkei!

    What does it say about Reiju in your copy?

    Very Happy


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    Re: esoteric buddhist practices

    Post by Milarepa on Thu Feb 25, 2010 4:36 am

    ahh, crap, apologies. I'm working on an article on the Hikkei for the forum , phoning travel agents & airlines (organising family & freinds over next week from Ireland), and replying to all the stuff on here, alongside trying to create new things on here! I got 12 bloody browsers opne, and 6 are for this site. Appreciate you pointing that corection, thanks.

    Edit: Yeah i see what happened now. The talk of esoteric Buddhism alongside me writing my piece on the Hikkei made me think of Chris Marsh's Reiju, which is based on Doi's which isn't based on anything from Usui sensei, hehe.

    Warmest wishes
    Wayne

    P.S. my copy of Hikkei will be the true orginal, i'll let you read it soon. Once i actually write it myself, hehe!


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    Re: esoteric buddhist practices

    Post by EzriReiki on Fri Feb 26, 2010 10:38 pm

    Milarepa wrote:

    The Denju initiaitons in which symbols are used, most certainly has buddhist concepts in them, it's highl;y general buddhist concepts, not linked ot any school (which is why i never linked it in my earlier posts).


    I know there are some initiations being used by Reiki Masters which have had several Buddhistic things added to them, such as Tibetan or Indian symbols and letters such as "Om" and "Hung". I've been told some people also use Buddhist mantras and mudras in their initiations, but these were not in the initiations which come to us from Takata



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    Re: esoteric buddhist practices

    Post by Milarepa on Fri Feb 26, 2010 10:53 pm

    EzriReiki wrote:
    Milarepa wrote:

    The Denju initiaitons in which symbols are used, most certainly has buddhist concepts in them, it's highl;y general buddhist concepts, not linked ot any school (which is why i never linked it in my earlier posts).


    I know there are some initiations being used by Reiki Masters which have had several Buddhistic things added to them, such as Tibetan or Indian symbols and letters such as "Om" and "Hung". I've been told some people also use Buddhist mantras and mudras in their initiations, but these were not in the initiations which come to us from Takata



    Ezri

    Yeah, this is right, Smile. I don't know the actual initiations of Takata sensei, not yet, hehe, but i will.

    Interestingly, in my own search for originality, i was taught what was supposedely Takata sensei's attunements. these included mudras, etc, but we're most definitely not a part of it.

    A teacher got the right to include what they want in attunements, i kinda find it ireksome when it's labelled as something it's not. It's one thing to allude to general buddhist concepts in Reiki, but quite another to say Reiki is Buddhist. I'd a disagreement with an author once over that. A muslim guy came onto another forum saying he were concerned about Reiki being buddhist. so some time was spent telling him it ain't. Reason this is important (i'm muslim also) is that Muslims can't do practices from other religions. so this would have stopped him from Reiki. With Islam being over 1/5 of the worlds population, this potentially automatically stops so many from expereincing Reiki.

    with Takata sensei being part-Japanese, and her being buried in a pure land cemetary, she still spoke of Reiki as 'God-power'. This seems a most non-buddhist thing to say really. Though may possibly aluude to the initial experience of Usui sensei on Kurama Yama (?).

    Warmest wishes
    wayne


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    Re: esoteric buddhist practices

    Post by EzriReiki on Sat Feb 27, 2010 1:40 am

    Milarepa wrote:

    with Takata sensei being part-Japanese, and her being buried in a pure land cemetary, she still spoke of Reiki as 'God-power'.

    I don't understand what you mean by "part-Japanese"?



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    Re: esoteric buddhist practices

    Post by Milarepa on Sat Feb 27, 2010 3:35 am

    The left hand side of her body, hehe. Sorry, i'm in a funny mood, Smile. Takata sensei was Japanese-American, and as we know, looked oriental.


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    Re: esoteric buddhist practices

    Post by EzriReiki on Sat Feb 27, 2010 3:48 am

    Milarepa wrote:The left hand side of her body, hehe. Sorry, i'm in a funny mood, Smile. Takata sensei was Japanese-American, and as we know, looked oriental.

    Takata was only "Japanese-American" in the sense that she was a person of Japanese decent born in Hawaii. She looked oriental because she was 'pure blood' Japanese.

    [btw, I choose to refer to her simply as "Takata" rather than Mrs Takata or sensei Takata or whatever, not out of any disrespect but because this is how she referred to herself and liked others to address her]


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    Re: esoteric buddhist practices

    Post by Milarepa on Sat Feb 27, 2010 3:57 am

    Ya know, i like you a lot Ezri! You kinda intrique me, hehe.


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    Re: esoteric buddhist practices

    Post by EzriReiki on Fri Mar 05, 2010 2:10 am

    Milarepa wrote:
    EzriReiki wrote:
    Milarepa wrote:

    The Denju initiaitons in which symbols are used, most certainly has buddhist concepts in them, it's highl;y general buddhist concepts, not linked ot any school (which is why i never linked it in my earlier posts).


    I know there are some initiations being used by Reiki Masters which have had several Buddhistic things added to them, such as Tibetan or Indian symbols and letters such as "Om" and "Hung". I've been told some people also use Buddhist mantras and mudras in their initiations, but these were not in the initiations which come to us from Takata

    Ezri

    Yeah, this is right, Smile. I don't know the actual initiations of Takata sensei, not yet, hehe, but i will.


    So which initiations are you talking about, are they from a particular school or style of Reiki? The ones you say have the "buddhist concepts in them", I mean?


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    Re: esoteric buddhist practices

    Post by Milarepa on Sun Mar 21, 2010 11:42 pm

    Ahh, sorry Ezri!

    You know i don't know the intiations Takata sensei used. As of yet. I've saw enough of the rest to see highly common themes to point to a source from which they came. I've gleaned enough from various sources to know these themes are present in Takata sensei's also.

    Buddhist concepts doesn't mean mudras, dieties, etc, neccessrily. that' what folks who say Reiki is buddhist tell others. I'm not saying Reiki is Buddhist, imo, Usui sensei followed many religions at once. What i feel is the buddhist concepts is more subtle than what the originality folks say.

    It's no big deal but Ezri, there's concepts from various paths within Reiki.


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