Did Hawayo Takata feel the need to lie about Reiki history?

EzriReiki wrote:Hello Frank

Frank wrote:
- Did Takata teach to pronounce the first mantra as "tsjoo-kuu-ray"

No. And this is known, not just from stories about Takata. A master student, John Harvey Gray, taped many hours of Takata giving Reiki lectures, answering students questions, and teaching Reiki. On one of the tapes you can hear Takata discussing the CKR and pronouncing it a few times. It is difficult to convey pronunciation in written words, especially as we all pronounce words with our own national, regional, or even individual accents. And even though Takata I suppose had what would be called a Hawaiian-Japanese accent, even so she pronounced CKR in very much the same way I have heard many Japanese people pronounce it. Something like: “CHOCK-uh-RAY”, or “CHOKE-uh-RAY”, said quite quickly, with accent, with the focus on the uppercase syllables.

Frank wrote:
- Did she say that Usui-sensei was a Christian (in stead of being a Buddhist all his life)?

Yes. Takata said he was a Christian, she did not say he was one all his life, she did not say he was not a Buddhist


EZRI

I find John's tapes very hard to hear.
are there tapes out there with better
sound quality.

I often wonder if Usui could hear how
we pronounce the Japanese words. He
would have a good belly laugh

Hi Everyone,

Chi said:
"if Usui could hear how
we pronounce the Japanese words. He
would have a good belly laugh"

This is a very true statement for a couple of reasons. Firstly, as often seen in martial arts circles, the language is often butchered even by "advanced" practitioners. This is often due to the lack of focus on teaching the correct way to say things. Secondly, over the years since Usui was living pronunciations have changed a bit. As pointed out in another thread, Ikura na/Okura na. This is just a natural evolution of language.

Another thing I would like to point out in regards to Takata Sensei is that she did not speak the same Japanese as Hayashi Sensei. The Japanese in Hawaii speak with their own "daialect". A good example of this is Takata Sensei often using "L" in her diary, such as "Leiki" and "Leiji-ho". There is no "L" in the Japanese language, but there is in Hawaii native language. Now I am not saying that this is how she talked with Hayashi. I am sure that she was aware of the difference and corrected it when she spoke. I have always believed she wrote it in her personal diary in her "normal" tounge. My Grandmother told me that learning to use the "L" sound was her greatest challenge when she first moved to the U.S. taking her about 2 years to stop using "R" in it's place in words such as "light". She told me that people often had a hard time understanding her at first.

Jotaro

sure jotaro, but as far as pronouncing something important goes, what's in a personal diary, and what's taught to students was two different things with Takata sensei. As Ezri has already highlighted, the pronounciation of symbols was accurate, .

BTW how was the course?

chi_solas wrote:

I find John's tapes very hard to hear.
are there tapes out there with better
sound quality.

Yes, they are hard to hear, I have a sony walkman with a noise reduction switch and this helps a little, but playing the tapes is a really good exercise in focussing listening. Jay gave me some other Takata recordings on CD, these are supposed to have been cleaned up, but I still had to pay very close attention, and replay bits over and over again to hear what was being said.


EZRI

Hi,

Sorry my post wasn't clear on my point. That's what I get for dropping a quick post on my way out the door to work.

My point was on the transmission in general, not need-be Takata sensei. I have heard many Reiki teachers mispronounce the symbols names. At shares or the many classes I either took or sat in on. It is quite a common problem (at least in the states of Pennsylvania, Minnesota, Iowa, and Wisconsin - thankfully not every teacher though!). DKM is the one I hear wrong most often but also HSZSN (the issue is usually with the Zee instead of Zeh - not the Sha/Ja way).

I do understand that the topic was as to if Takata Sensei pronounced CKR correctly, but I feel that most likely the the different ways of saying the symbols occured post-Takata - much like the variations in the way symbols are drawn.

Jotaro

p/s Wayne I haven't had the course yet, it's on the 23rd - 25th. I am excited though!

AlienProgeny wrote:

p/s Wayne I haven't had the course yet, it's on the 23rd - 25th. I am excited though!

gives upo an apprasial when you do please, if possible? doesn't have to be in any detail, just a genric opinion would be great!

oh, 'real life fox mulder', please explain!

Hello AlienProgeny

AlienProgeny wrote:


I do understand that the topic was as to if Takata Sensei pronounced CKR correctly, but I feel that most likely the the different ways of saying the symbols occured post-Takata - much like the variations in the way symbols are drawn.

[/quote]
Yes, even in another part of the same tape which was a recording of part of the second degree training, one of the students I think, asked question about CKR and pronounces the name like three individual, long words: cho, koo, ray. So if a student is mishearing and mispronouncing it during the training course itself, and not just misrembering it later, it isnot all that strange that we have ended up with many versions of it, regional accents etc not included.


EZRI

EzriReiki wrote:

chi_solas wrote:

I find John's tapes very hard to hear.
are there tapes out there with better
sound quality.

Yes, they are hard to hear, I have a sony walkman with a noise reduction switch and this helps a little, but playing the tapes is a really good exercise in focussing listening. Jay gave me some other Takata recordings on CD, these are supposed to have been cleaned up, but I still had to pay very close attention, and replay bits over and over again to hear what was being said.


EZRI

Yes you really have to focus
mindful listening

EzriReiki wrote:Hello AlienProgeny

AlienProgeny wrote:


I do understand that the topic was as to if Takata Sensei pronounced CKR correctly, but I feel that most likely the the different ways of saying the symbols occured post-Takata - much like the variations in the way symbols are drawn.

Yes, even in another part of the same tape which was a recording of part of the second degree training, one of the students I think, asked question about CKR and pronounces the name like three individual, long words: cho, koo, ray. So if a student is mishearing and mispronouncing it during the training course itself, and not just misrembering it later, it isnot all that strange that we have ended up with many versions of it, regional accents etc not included.


EZRI

I spell it Cho Ku Rei taught to pronounce it Cho koo Ray

The worst I ever heard for CKR was a fellow who said it Chew Cow Rye(like the bread). I have also heard people more than once end DKM with Meow (like a cat). That plus the Mio (as in: oh so la mio - that old Italian song).

The reason of pronunciation and drawing of the symbols are why I personally am against the "oral Tradition" way of teaching. I originally started with the Reiki Alliance and that is how they do things. After my Reiki 2 class, I found that I had some difficulty remembering exactly how to draw the symbols. I could remember somewhat, but not what could be called right. I ended up revisiting my teacher and spending the day re-drawing them over and over again to memorize them. He still didn't let me keep the copies, but at least he was kind enough to help me some. Not all students would go back and ask the how to questions, and out of the six in the class four later confessed that they didn't remember how to draw them. It may be different for students in Japan where these symbols are more common place, but in the rest of the world..... Well, maybe that is just a me issue.

Jotaro

I use the small erase boards
with a felt tip marker so my
students can make the strokes
and capture the flow as close
to Japanese drawing of the
symbols. Using a pencil or pen
is ok but using the small erase
boards is more fun and your apt
to remember things that are fun.

Hi,

I really like the idea of the erase board (whiteboard ?).
I thought about doing it that way as well, if I get the permission to teach.

EzriReiki wrote:And even though Takata I suppose had what would be called a Hawaiian-Japanese accent, even so she pronounced CKR in very much the same way I have heard many Japanese people pronounce it. Something like: “CHOCK-uh-RAY”, or “CHOKE-uh-RAY”, said quite quickly, with accent, with the focus on the uppercase syllables.

Thanks! I already believed so.
The way I tried to write down the pronunciation ("tsjoo-kuu-ray") is strongly influenced by Dutch, as I am Dutch. I apologise for that. What I meant was pretty much the same as what you wrote down.

Milarepa wrote:What was most important to her, was to live by the 5 principles. Seh devoted every single aspect of her life to them. In this respect, what language they were understaood is neither here nor there. That's only an outward trinket.

It seems that you and I are not aware of Takata teaching the Gokai as a mantra that should be pronounced in Japanese. I never heard of her teaching that end I don't think she did.

However, in what some claim to be the 'more original' teachings, some might go as far as saying that the mantra was more important than understanding the principles rationally. Whether that is true or not can only be fully understood by correctly and intensively 'chanting' or reciting the mantra.

Milarepa wrote:

Frank wrote:I agree with MattiT that change is inevitable with oral traditions.
How could it not be? Usui-sensei's way of teaching was very individual and tailored to the student.

It was?

According to what I have been taught in Usui Reiki Ryōhō (I explained in another thread from whom I learn(ed) and where most of the information comes from) it was.

It was a spiritual path full of meditation.
A student would sit regularly with his teacher, practising. The teacher would give a certain technique or meditation (or other teaching) according to the students needs, his/her background, his/her spiritual development. We actually might not even be able to really talk about Usui-sensei's teachings as a fixed system as such.

Only when the student was ready, he or she was given the next technique, meditation or teaching.
How the teacher (Shihan) knew when the student was ready? He/she would watch the student's progress, spiritual development end next to that the student would tell the teacher his or her experiences.

Beginning to study at a certain level would indeed mean "to begin". There would be a couple of days by means of an introduction to a certain level, but that was just the beginning. The student would practise in his/her own time, at home or wherever. It could take months or even longer than a year to 'complete' a level. And being a Shihan doesn't actually mean that you completed Shinpiden. Shinpiden is open-ended...

Take Okuden for example. The Okuden Kōki part consists of various stages. When you start to study at that level, you begin with the first stage. That first stage consists of one meditation on one very specific energy. One cannot finish this stage in a couple of days. You have to really get to know the energy. Not just that, you need to become -one- with the energy, to fully experience it and to integrate it into your life (which, by the way, actually happens automatically if you truly become one with the energy). This is not primarily meant for treatment purposes. This can take up to half a year before you can move on.

Once you can become one with that energy, the teacher will give you a slight variation on the meditation and again.. you are supposed to practise with this in your own time. And again, this can take a few months.
So in total it can take up to a year.

And this was only the first stage of Okuden Kōki

Teaching this way feels so incredibly logical to me. And I believe this way can be found in several other distinctly spiritual teachings/systems as well.

I have never heard of Takata teaching this way. It wouldn't surprise me if level 1 was supposed to be completed after just a few days. The same with level 2.
I don't believe her students would practise with one technique or meditation for several months, reporting their experiences, Takata keeping a close look on their development, before they were handed the next step.

That is why I do not accept the idea of Takata having taught exactly like Usui-sensei.
(The fact that she did not teach a vital mantra and the most important meditation (Hatsurei Hō) of the teachings, also contribute to my idea about this.)


You seem to be very sceptical when Reiki history is concerned and I think that is very good. I am sceptical myself too.
In the end, most things of what we are told about Usui, Hayashi or Takata comes down to stories and things told by students and other people. It is completely up to us whether we believe them or not. I can understand why one wouldn't believe certain sources, but on the other hand I can also see why other people -do- believe them.

However, I am convinced of the value of what I have been taught as Usui Reiki Ryōhō by experiencing the meditations myself. The kind of training I described with Okuden Kōki as an example is the way I am being taught. My teacher makes sure I understand every step of the teachings (experiencing it leads to understanding) before he offers me the next step. It can only be taught this way.
I feel very, very blessed and grateful that I can learn it this way.

I hope that I clarified myself sufficiently.

*Gasshō*
Frank

Yes Frank, a white erase board 8x11
I tried using wet sand once but
the board is better.

keep it simple

hiya Frank!

Frank wrote:

However, in what some claim to be the 'more original' teachings, some might go as far as saying that the mantra was more important than understanding the principles rationally. Whether that is true or not can only be fully understood by correctly and intensively 'chanting' or reciting the mantra.

It's true words have power. However, the Reiki principles are meant to be lived by. This is what they're for, not a recitation, a living experience. It's why we say them 'and in our heart'. Folks in the west who don't know Japanese cant live by the principles unless we know them in english. How am i meant to know that Usui sensei advised my not to get angry for today, unless i knew literally what he meant?

this is also our first Reiki tsate of mindfullness. just for today. how can one be mindful if they don't know what it is they're mieant to be mindful of?

recitation in a mantra way is something that works on a sublte level, but can take time. all the while i wouldn't know not to be angry, just for today. In this way, i cant' see sense with whomever original folks say such things. it's the cart before the horse somewhat.

Frank wrote:

Milarepa wrote:

Frank wrote:I agree with MattiT that change is inevitable with oral traditions.
How could it not be? Usui-sensei's way of teaching was very individual and tailored to the student.

It was?

Teaching this way feels so incredibly logical to me. And I believe this way can be found in several other distinctly spiritual teachings/systems as well.

It might be buddy, but so is the dragon dance in Qigong. that doesn't mean i do it in Reiki. what's in one system, or common, ultimetely has no bearing on another, .

Frank wrote:
I have never heard of Takata teaching this way. It wouldn't surprise me if level 1 was supposed to be completed after just a few days. The same with level 2.
I don't believe her students would practise with one technique or meditation for several months, reporting their experiences, Takata keeping a close look on their development, before they were handed the next step.

That is why I do not accept the idea of Takata having taught exactly like Usui-sensei.

Takata sensei's teachings don't need to be compared to what is honestly new modern accumalataive teachings. Though, it can taskes years, if at all, for a person to be level 3 in certain lineages in Usui Shiki Ryoho. If a perosn is lucky enough to get accepted as level 1 student, no guarantee they will be alloowed to go to level 2. and even less chance level 3.

You know how Usui sensei taught? From what is being shared here, you clearly don't know what Takata sensei taught (look at how many things said that's bene inaccurate), so i don't know how a judgment can be made that she never taught lile Usui sensei did. I don't kow how she taught exactly, yet, and i study Usui Shiki Ryoho, .


If we look at the training by Hayashi sensei that he gave to both Takata sensei, and the training Chiyoko Yamguchi recieved, we can see that in both cases, they were taught very similar in the first two levels, over a matter of days. however, as we can tell form Takata sensei's notes dating back to the 1930's, she had an apprenticeship with Hayashi sensei that lasted a year in Japan. Takata sensei on occasion did spend lots of time with her master students, living with them. and as any student knows, to live under the same roof as your teacher, it's constant training all day. Even if it looks like it's not. Takata sensei can't be expected to teach in a way a student of Usui sensei never taught her, .

Frank wrote:
(The fact that she did not teach a vital mantra and the most important meditation (Hatsurei Hō) of the teachings, also contribute to my idea about this.)

that your perogative Frank, . Can i just ask, can you show me where this 'vital mantra' is instructed to be said only in Japanese? and can you show me wher ethe emphasis is on recitation, and not living it? Also show me the proof Usui sensei taught something called Hatusrei ho?

Frank wrote:
You seem to be very sceptical when Reiki history is concerned and I think that is very good.

I've seen & heard it all Frank. And folks do tell deliberate lies about things, letting them spread.


warmest wishes
Wayne

Frank, hi

Frank wrote:

However, in what some claim to be the 'more original' teachings, some might go as far as saying that the mantra was more important than understanding the principles rationally. Whether that is true or not can only be fully understood by correctly and intensively 'chanting' or reciting the mantra.

While the Gokai can indeed be seen to possess mantric qualities,
(I mention this in the Gokai Blessing Ceremony)

I would suggest that this is only one of many facets of the Gokai

- and while undoubtedly an important one, and possibly more important than understanding the principles rationally, I think first and foremost, as Wayne said:

"the Reiki principles are meant to be lived by. This is what they're for, not a recitation, a living experience. It's why we say them 'and in our heart'"

Milarepa wrote: Can i just ask, can you show me where this 'vital mantra' is instructed to be said only in Japanese?

good point Wayne

- though, as even Usui-sensei himself might not have predicted the spread of his reiho (spiritual method) outside of Japan, the possibility of the Gokai being recited in another language may never have even been considered.

Milarepa wrote:
and can you show me wher ethe emphasis is on recitation, and not living it?

Ehem,

that little bit of text that follows the five principles themselves does seem to place emphasis on recitation
(though there is of course no mention of not living the principles)

“asa you gassho shite kokoro ni nenji kuchi ni tonaeyo “

Milarepa wrote:
Also show me the proof Usui sensei taught something called Hatusrei ho?

page 17 of the Hikkei, perhaps?

How can I receive the second degree (Okuden) - what does it involve?

Okuden consists of several methods - hatsurei ho [発霊法]; patting, stroking and pressing hands; distance treatment; healing of habits/propensities; etc.

However, while the Hikkei does indeed mention that there was a method called 'hatsurei ho', which was part of the level two teaching, there is no description of this method.

And importantly, there is no evidence that the 'hatsurei ho' mentioned is even in any way connected with, or had a purpose in any similar to, the techniques commonly known by that name today.

Frank wrote:
That is why I do not accept the idea of Takata having taught exactly like Usui-sensei.
(The fact that she did not teach a vital mantra and the most important meditation (Hatsurei Hō) of the teachings, also contribute to my idea about this.)

It is perhaps pertinent that we have many first-hand accounts by living students* of how and what Takata-sensei taught

however we only have a couple or so second or third-hand accounts about how and what Usui-sensei may have taught....



* (many of the '22', and also numerous others whom Takata-sensei trained at level one and two)

Hi,

Milarepa wrote:
However, the Reiki principles are meant to be lived by. This is what they're for, not a recitation, a living experience. It's why we say them 'and in our heart'. Folks in the west who don't know Japanese cant live by the principles unless we know them in english. How am i meant to know that Usui sensei advised my not to get angry for today, unless i knew literally what he meant?

Sure, one must try to live by the Gokai. I did not say that one shouldn't.
I did say, however, that some people might go as far as saying that the mantra is more important than understanding them rationally.
I get the impression that you think that I say, or that some might go as far as saying, that living by the Gokai is not at all important. But that is definitely -not- what I wanted to point out. Yes, living by the Gokai (and thus understanding the meaning of the words) is important. However, using it as a mantra is at least equally important (or even more important).
And the reason why that's important can only be fully understood by actually reciting the mantra. By doing it.

It is wonderful and I can recommend it to everyone. Usui-sensei didn't teach it because it is worthless...

Hayashi asked his students to recite the Gokai because of its power. People in Jikiden Reiki are asked to chant them in the original Japanese sounds. Chris Marsh teaches to recite the Gokai as a mantra in the Japanese sounds.
And the most important thing: Usui-sensei himself advised us to chant them. ("kuchi ni tonahe yo" in Usui's own document called "Gainen" is translated as "with mouth chant" by Hyakuten Inamoto; he is very fluent in English and a very good translator of old kanji).

Aah, I now see that James also mentions the "little bit of text that follows the five principles".

Milarepa wrote:Though, it can taskes years, if at all, for a person to be level 3 in certain lineages in Usui Shiki Ryoho. If a perosn is lucky enough to get accepted as level 1 student, no guarantee they will be alloowed to go to level 2. and even less chance level 3.

If that is true, that would be wonderful.

What do you mean by "certain lineages of Usui Shiki Ryoho" ?

Milarepa wrote:You know how Usui sensei taught?

I do not claim to know exactly how or what Usui-sensei taught. I thought I already explained that in another thread.
That is why I keep saying "what I have been taught in.." and "what I understand of.." and "some people might say that..". Futhermore, I talk about my own experiences with these teachings.

Milarepa wrote:so i don't know how a judgment can be made that she never taught lile Usui sensei did.

What I said earlier: I am not aware of any proof that Takata taught to recite the Gokai (as a mantra, in Japanese) while her teacher and Chiyoko Yamaguchi did and while it is mentioned in Usui-sensei's own text.
Also, I am not aware of any source claiming that Takata taught meditations (like Hatsurei Hō >> which is very important), while Hayashi practised them and taught them, while the Yamaguchis taught (teach) them, while the Usui Reiki Ryōhō Gakkai teach them and while Hiroshi Doi teaches them.

Milarepa wrote:however, as we can tell form Takata sensei's notes dating back to the 1930's, she had an apprenticeship with Hayashi sensei that lasted a year in Japan. Takata sensei on occasion did spend lots of time with her master students, living with them. and as any student knows, to live under the same roof as your teacher, it's constant training all day. Even if it looks like it's not.

Seems like a wonderful way of teaching to me!

that your perogative Frank, .

If you mean "prerogative" I do not entirely understand what you are trying to say in conjunction with what you quote.

Milarepa wrote:
Can i just ask, can you show me where this 'vital mantra' is instructed to be said only in Japanese? and can you show me wher ethe emphasis is on recitation, and not living it? Also show me the proof Usui sensei taught something called Hatusrei ho?

No one says that one shouldn't live it.
Tadao Yamaguchi says in his book that he also asks non-Japanese people to recite the Gokai in Japanese. Chris Marsh also askes his students to do so.
One will understand why, when doing it for some time.

Regarding the mantra and recitation: Usui-sensei himself (Gainen), Hayashi, Yamaguchi, (I believe) Inamoto, Ogawa (Gakkai), Chris Marsh.

Regarding Hatsurei Hō: Hikkei (as James mentions), Hayashi, Yamaguchi, Ogawa, Doi, Inamoto and I also believe that it was at least part of the "Usui Teate-version" Chris and Any taught a few years ago.

Rlei_Ki wrote:It is perhaps pertinent that we have many first-hand accounts by living students* of how and what Takata-sensei taught

however we only have a couple or so second or third-hand accounts about how and what Usui-sensei may have taught....

I am, of course, aware of that.
However, my experiences with the meditations, techniques and other teachings convinced me of the truth of many of their words. Perhaps not everything they say (I am sceptical and critical myself), but it is not complete rubbish.

*Gasshō*
Frank

Rlei_ki wrote:

Milarepa wrote:
and can you show me wher ethe emphasis is on recitation, and not living it?

Ehem,

that little bit of text that follows the five principles themselves does seem to place emphasis on recitation
(though there is of course no mention of not living the principles)

sure, :)i expected this. i'm not reciting them in my heart though, yert it also palces equal value in both out loud & in your heart.

“asa you gassho shite kokoro ni nenji kuchi ni tonaeyo “

Rlei_ki wrote:

Milarepa wrote:
Also show me the proof Usui sensei taught something called Hatusrei ho?

page 17 of the Hikkei, perhaps?

/

you know what i'm gonna say, hehe. that online pdf that has been sold online, that two folks are claiming they released equally at the same time, that was compiled in 1970's in modern kanji yet wrote grammatically in old way. compiled by an elusive woman, form an elusive society, being sold online at a time when it was cash-register time for such an original thing.


warmest wishes
Wayne

hi Frank, many thanks for the detailed responce buddy! Its' greatl appreciated!

Frank wrote:Hi,

Sure, one must try to live by the Gokai. I did not say that one shouldn't.
I did say, however, that some people might go as far as saying that the mantra is more important than understanding them rationally.

I know what you said Frank, . I'm disagreeing with whoever is telling you this.

Frank wrote:
Hayashi asked his students to recite the Gokai because of its power.

He did? how do you know?

Frank wrote:
People in Jikiden Reiki are asked to chant them in the original Japanese sounds.

It's a Japanese system Frank, lots of Japanese flavour to it.

Frank wrote:
Chris Marsh teaches to recite the Gokai as a mantra in the Japanese sounds.

Chris also taught things that are buddhist, simply cause they are buddhist, apparently.

Frank wrote:
And the most important thing: Usui-sensei himself advised us to chant them. ("kuchi ni tonahe yo" in Usui's own document called "Gainen" is translated as "with mouth chant" by Hyakuten Inamoto; he is very fluent in English and a very good translator of old kanji).

I;m near sure it was never disputed they are to be spoke. what was in question was what is the primary way of applying them.

Frank wrote:
Aah, I now see that James also mentions the "little bit of text that follows the five principles".

You'll see my rpely then, .

Frank wrote:

Milarepa wrote:Though, it can taskes years, if at all, for a person to be level 3 in certain lineages in Usui Shiki Ryoho. If a perosn is lucky enough to get accepted as level 1 student, no guarantee they will be alloowed to go to level 2. and even less chance level 3.

If that is true, that would be wonderful.

What do you mean by "certain lineages of Usui Shiki Ryoho" ?

Like i've wrote in this topic to you this week. the lineages whom stay true to Takata sensei.

Frank wrote:

Milarepa wrote:You know how Usui sensei taught?

I do not claim to know exactly how or what Usui-sensei taught. I thought I already explained that in another thread.
That is why I keep saying "what I have been taught in.." and "what I understand of.." and "some people might say that..". Futhermore, I talk about my own experiences with these teachings.

It get's confusing then when you say:

Frank wrote:
That is why I do not accept the idea of Takata having taught exactly like Usui-sensei.

if you don't know exactly what Takata sensei taught, and don't know exactly what Usui sensei taught, pretty hard ot make a judgement call i'd have thought, .

Frank wrote:

Milarepa wrote:so i don't know how a judgment can be made that she never taught lile Usui sensei did.

What I said earlier: I am not aware of any proof that Takata taught to recite the Gokai (as a mantra, in Japanese) while her teacher and Chiyoko Yamaguchi did and while it is mentioned in Usui-sensei's own text.

Well, if a Japanese woman was getting taught in Japan, by a Japanese man, what language do you think would be used?

If a Japanese woman such as Chiyoko, couldn't speak english, what language do you think she'd use?

In any event, i'd go for what a 40 to 50 year practicing student of Hayashi sensei placed as importance.

Frank wrote:
Also, I am not aware of any source claiming that Takata taught meditations (like Hatsurei Hō >> which is very important), while Hayashi practised them and taught them,

I'm still not sure where the importance of Hatsurei is coming from Frank? How do you know Hayashi sensei taught it?

Frank wrote:
while the Yamaguchis taught (teach) them, while the Usui Reiki Ryōhō Gakkai teach them and while Hiroshi Doi teaches them.

Jikiden is a modern style. And Chiyoko Yamaguchi told Fran Brown ( a woman whom stayed rigidly to Takata sensei's teachings) that Fran was the only person teaching what Hayashi taught. Fran did say this, well, a person wohm Fran said it to told me. Now Fran never taught Hatsurei. do the maths on that, .

It's also worth noting, that all these modern Japanese styles, do change things within the system. Jikiden is no different, the head family will sit down and discuss changes.

i'm not sure who speaks to the gakkai (besides one or two folks), so it's weird folks automaticallyl believe they actually exist.

Frank wrote:

that your perogative Frank, .

If you mean "prerogative" I do not entirely understand what you are trying to say in conjunction with what you quote.

i mean it's up to you what you feel.

Frank wrote:

Milarepa wrote:
Can i just ask, can you show me where this 'vital mantra' is instructed to be said only in Japanese? and can you show me wher ethe emphasis is on recitation, and not living it? Also show me the proof Usui sensei taught something called Hatusrei ho?

No one says that one shouldn't live it.
Tadao Yamaguchi says in his book that he also asks non-Japanese people to recite the Gokai in Japanese. Chris Marsh also askes his students to do so.
One will understand why, when doing it for some time.

I do it myself, lol. Have done for 5 years. What Tadao or Chris says isn't Reiki law. It's their own decisions on their current ways.

Frank wrote:
Regarding the mantra and recitation: Usui-sensei himself (Gainen), Hayashi, Yamaguchi, (I believe) Inamoto, Ogawa (Gakkai), Chris Marsh.

No proof. No proof. He's Japanese. He's Japanese. what did he say? Chris says lots of things, lol.

Frank wrote:
Regarding Hatsurei Hō: Hikkei (as James mentions), Hayashi, Yamaguchi, Ogawa, Doi, Inamoto and I also believe that it was at least part of the "Usui Teate-version" Chris and Any taught a few years ago.

Thr Hikkei is a disputed subject. I'm cool being the only one on the planet openely disputing it, lol. There's actually more prrof Hayashi sensei never taught Hatsurei, than otherwise. It's not mentioned as far as i know, in Takata sensei's diaries. IF Hayashi was in agreement with the Hikkei, then Takata sensei would undoubtedely have been taught it in Japan. Such a great technqiue it stands to reason she would have mentioned it. This is a storng indication Hayashi never taught it. she was likely one his most major students. And a student knowing how important they are in the eyes of the teacher would never dare to change things. I know this form personal experience in martial arts.

These other modern teachers whom have created modern styles have a right to use what they wish. However, just cause a modern Japanese Reiki teacher says something, does not mean it is the way things are said. Or any other teacher anywhere.

Usui-teate is a disputed system for it's claims. thankyou for giving me the opportunity to raise so many points, though!

All is not golden in 'Reiki-Land', .

warmest wishes
Wayne

Very interesting discussion
I am picking up new info and
see a challenge to re-think
saying the precepts in Japanese

i just got word back from one of takata sensei's master students. she never taught to saw the principles in japanese. in those days everyone kids were encouraged to only speak enlish. i assume in hawaii.

That makes sense for that time period

must have been the societies work & education thing?

Reiki's roots are Japanese I see
no harm in using one's homeland
language combined with Japanese

chi_solas wrote:I use the small erase boards
with a felt tip marker

i haven't started teaching yet, but owing to my teaching spree spanning about seven years now in the areas of finance, management and accounts, i have realized that teaching is the start of next level of learning for a teacher... various concpets get rooted firmly while we try to explain them.... i would love teaching reiki someday


for personal practice on drawing symbols, i use soft lead pencil (often 2B), and then cut the tip into edges so that they correspond to a brush for calligraphy... writing symbols in calligraphic style and trying to get close to kanji strokes, is such a fun in its own right


take care

salman

Frank wrote:

It seems that you and I are not aware of Takata teaching the Gokai as a mantra that should be pronounced in Japanese. I never heard of her teaching that end I don't think she did.

However, in what some claim to be the 'more original' teachings, some might go as far as saying that the mantra was more important than understanding the principles rationally. Whether that is true or not can only be fully understood by correctly and intensively 'chanting' or reciting the mantra.

it might be a win-a-win situation both ways... while reciting gokai in japaneese (in the way they were constructed by Usui himself), this may invite the subtle powers of the words used within gokai, and have value, but to ignore the intrinsic meanings of the gokai wouldn't be good either...

actually, we must do both... try to recite gokai in japaneese, and also making ourselves uderstand the meanings on conscious levels in our native toungue... if we are trying to use Gokai in Japaneese like a magic-word/mantra so that they would transform our personality automatically, this would be a disservice to ourselves... Usui Sensei no doubt required us to be 'mindful' when reciting gokai, and for being mindful we need to understand them, and this through a language we speak and understand..

salman